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Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
  Old Post 14-05-2005 16:46
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yeah, tell me about it.

Just another tactic, in a long list of liberal tactics.

Let's toss out the bums.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:19
  Old Post 14-05-2005 16:54
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quote:

Uh...isn't that what I said?


Clarifying 'vague' dissentions within the Liberal party, that's all.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
time: 21:19
  Old Post 14-05-2005 17:01
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quote:

Actual Conservative policy is a bit more complicated.

They want free votes in Parliament to define marriage and are hostile to the courts doing so. So, they are not out an out against same-sex marriage.


Freedom of conscience is a double-edged sword in this. It allows individual members to vote against the policy of a party.

However, you do have to acknowledge that the conservative convention overwhelmingly voted to support a ban against gay marriage.

The PCs are out of touch, and outdated from the views of most Canadians and are a liability on this issue rather than an asset.

Canadians need one party willing to stand for all conservatives, and that includes the so-cos.

As for rolling back, that's an euphemism, NYE. I suppose you mean that the government could not pass a bill establishing traditional marriage as the law of the land?

Richelieu is offline Richelieu
Warlord
Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither


Why do you assume that Tories elected from Quebec would be 'BK kind of guys'?


I'm saying that today's tories are BK kind of guys. Being a BK kind of guy is not a platform that you can get elected on in Quebec. So i am actually saying the contrary.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 04:12
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Stronach and McKay are deeply religious people who feel their dogma should influence public policy?

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 06:08
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New poll shows Liberal support falling:

quote:
Liberal support plummets,
poll finds 50% believe PM has lost confidence of House;
Grits face defeat in Ontario, Atlantic provinces

Mark Kennedy and Allan Woods
The Ottawa Citizen
Saturday, May 14, 2005

Prime Minister Paul Martin's Liberals have suddenly plummeted in public support -- particularly in their traditionally loyal regions of Ontario and Atlantic Canada -- and would likely be defeated if an election were held now, a new poll suggests.

The Ipsos-Reid poll, provided exclusively to CanWest/Global, also reveals the minority government will be hard-pressed to avoid public pressure for an election, since half of Canadians now believe the government has lost the confidence of Parliament and should call an "immediate" election. In yet another protest over the Liberals' refusal to do just that, the Tories and Bloc Quebecois yesterday forced Parliament to adjourn early for the third day in a row.

"This is the perfect storm for the Liberals," Ipsos-Reid senior vice-president John Wright said yesterday. "Parliament is in near-paralysis. The Gomery commission continues to rain acid rain. It's an environment where people will soon want to call for an election, saying it's time to clear the air.

"We're really at a crossroads in terms of the confidence people have in the government and are prepared to accept the fact we're likely headed for an election."

The timing couldn't be worse for Mr. Martin's Liberals. The governing party appeared on the rebound just more than a week ago thanks to the prime minister's aggressive public-relations blitz, but voters have once again abandoned the Grits in droves.

Much of that support is bleeding to the left of the political spectrum, to the NDP and, to a lesser extent, the Green party.

The new survey reveals the Conservatives hold the lead nationally with 31 per cent of the decided vote, unchanged from an Ipsos poll conducted a week earlier. The Liberals, however, are down to 27 per cent, a sudden drop of five points.

The NDP stands at 19 per cent, up three points, while the Bloc Quebecois is at 13 per cent, up one point, and the Green party is supported by six per cent, up one point.

"These numbers here suggest a Conservative minority," said Mr. Wright.

The pollster also asked Canadians if they think the government lost the confidence of Parliament on Tuesday when it lost the motion by a 153-150 margin. Half the public expressed that sentiment and said the development should lead to an "immediate" election.

Forty-six per cent disagreed, and four per cent did not know.

Meanwhile, the Commons remained at a virtual standstill yesterday, as the opposition tied business up in procedural votes and motions to adjourn.

But after days of name-calling and increasingly ugly behaviour, Tory leader Stephen Harper said yesterday he intends to take the high road.

Mr. Harper said he has exhausted all efforts to force a confidence vote Monday, when all MPs can participate, and will agree to deciding the fate of the Liberal government next Thursday, even if he must do so without the support of a cancer-stricken Tory MP.

He said he has instructed B.C. Conservative MP Darrel Stinson to stay home, where he will undergo surgery next Wednesday for bladder cancer, rather than try to return to Ottawa for the vote on the government's budget legislation, Bill C-43.

The promise of a detente when the House returns next week came after veteran NDP MP Ed Broadbent, who represents Ottawa Centre, offered to absent himself from the upcoming vote to level the playing field for both sides, part of what the NDP said is an attempt to bring some civility back to federal politics.

The parliamentary tradition, known as "pairing," will also make it easier, by one crucial vote, for the Tories and Bloc Quebecois to defeat the government and force a federal election as early as June 27.

The government says a provincial election in B.C. and the Queen's visit to Alberta and Saskatchewan prevent a confidence vote from being held before Thursday.

The procedural wrangling in the House yesterday prevented 21-year Liberal MP Don Boudria, who represents Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, from delivering a planned farewell speech in the Commons where colleagues and former staff had gathered.

It was left to Mr. Broadbent, who is retiring from federal politics to care for his ill wife, to offer to absent himself from the coming confidence vote so that the Tories will not be affected by Mr. Stinson's absence.

"It seems to me it's a civilized, kind and decent thing to do," he said. "Sometimes there aren't ulterior motives. Sometimes people just do things for the right reasons."

The Liberals and two opposition parties have expressed support for the pairing, which will likely see Mr. Stinson paired with Natural Resources Minister John Efford, who is undergoing treatment for diabetes, rather than Mr. Broadbent.

It means the Conservatives and Bloc now need the support of just one of two independent MPs, either Chuck Cadman or David Kilgour, to defeat the government.

A third independent MP, Carolyn Parrish, has indicated she supports the government.

If the government loses the budget vote Thursday, triggering an election, the Ipsos-Reid poll suggests the real danger for the Liberals lies in the regional breakdowns:

- In vote-rich but volatile Ontario, the Liberals are in serious trouble. In a single week, Liberal support has dropped dramatically to 32 per cent, down 12 points. The Conservatives now attract 34 per cent of the vote, up one point, while the NDP has 22 per cent, up five points, and the Green party has eight per cent, up four points.

In last year's election, the Liberals won a minority government, electing 135 MPs. That victory was based on a strong showing in Ontario, where voters elected 75 Liberals, 24 Conservatives, and seven New Democrats. If Mr. Martin hopes to win re-election, he'll have to count on a strong contingent of Ontario MPs to do so.

- In Quebec, where the public is addicted to the Gomery inquiry into the sponsorship scandal, the Liberals are poised to be punished by voters. Support for the Bloc Quebecois stands at 56 per cent, up by six points. By comparison, the Liberals are supported by only 15 per cent, down five points, and are competing for votes with the other two federalist parties, the NDP, at 11 per cent, and the Tories, 10 per cent.

In addition, a separate Leger Marketing poll done for the Montreal Gazette and the Journal de Montreal, found that 54 per cent of all Quebecers, and two of three francophones, support sovereignty and don't think Quebec's interests are well protected within the Canadian federation.

- In Atlantic Canada, a Liberal bastion in recent years, the party is also in peril of losing seats. In last year's vote, the party picked up 22 of the region's 32 seats, an accomplishment that gave Mr. Martin a badly needed comfort level to secure a minority government.

However, now the party's support is down to 35 per cent, a drop of 10 points. Meanwhile, the Conservatives have inched upwards by two points to 34 per cent, essentially putting them in a tie with the Liberals. The NDP has surged up 10 points, to 27 points -- once again putting them in contention to pick up seats.

The poll of 1,001 adult Canadians was conducted Tuesday through Thursday. With a sample of this size, the margin of error is 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

The poll found 13 per cent of voters are undecided on which party to support.

The survey was conducted at a particularly tumultuous period for the governing Liberals.

In Ottawa, the Tories and the Bloc joined forces Tuesday night to pass a motion that they said should have forced the government's resignation, but the Liberals said it was just a procedural matter and refused to recognize it as a non-confidence motion.

And in Montreal, the Gomery inquiry heard more explosive evidence about alleged kickbacks to the Liberals, as former senior party officials testified about how envelopes stuffed with cash were used to help finance the party's efforts to win seats in Quebec in the 1997 and 2000 elections.

Mr. Wright said it's likely that both of these developments were factors in the dramatic shift away from the Liberals, adding there's little Mr. Martin can do to minimize the damage.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 07:35
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NYE and Ben are the only people in Canada other than the candidates who give a shiat about this election.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 10:03 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Much of that support is bleeding to the left of the political spectrum, to the NDP and, to a lesser extent, the Green party.


Greens aren't left-wing. They are the new home of the Red Tories.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 10:20
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The NDP must be pretty worried.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 11:36 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Well, Greens get a lot of cred with socially conscious youth simply through the virtue of their name, and in spite of their capitalistic agenda.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 12:00
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Damn. Ain't it a shame you don't have to be a Marxist to care about social justice and the environment.

Richelieu is offline Richelieu
Warlord
Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 15-05-2005 19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Stronach and McKay are deeply religious people who feel their dogma should influence public policy?


Their party obviously is.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
  Old Post 16-05-2005 00:49
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Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of nonreligious people who agree with Tory policy.

Voltaire is offline Voltaire
King
Calgary, Alberta
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
  Old Post 16-05-2005 01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of nonreligious people who agree with Tory policy.

Not enough to give them a majority government; most Canadians, even if they can agree with the new Conservatives on fiscal issues, tend to be apprehensive regarding the social conservatism of the new party.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
  Old Post 16-05-2005 09:23
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Yes, the problem does seem to be one of fear of the unknown. The Liberals count on it.

Richelieu is offline Richelieu
Warlord
Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 16-05-2005 21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire
Most Canadians, even if they can agree with the new Conservatives on fiscal issues, tend to be apprehensive regarding the social conservatism of the new party.


That's exactly it.

St Leo is offline St Leo
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Jul 2005
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 00:22 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Damn. Ain't it a shame you don't have to be a Marxist to care about social justice and the environment.


My point was that our Green Party is not actually that great when it comes to either, but kids get them mixed up with US Greens and Ralph Nader because the name is so similar.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 09:32
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Tired of ads?

You seem to be a vocal critic of everybody who isn't the NDP.

Guess what?

The NDP is not actually that great to anybody who isn't directly connected to the victimhood express. Too many special interests have too big a hand in the party, or that is the perception.

I don't blame some environmentalists from wanting to split off.

Wezil is offline Wezil
King
Ontario, Canada
Nov 1999
time: 01:49
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:14
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Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Liberals are vaguely split on the issue, and the votes on gay marriage are free votes, so members can vote as they like without fear of party discipline.


This was no more "free" for the Liberals than the Mulroney "free vote" on capital punishment - the Cabinet (quite sizable as you know) was whipped.

Wezil is offline Wezil
King
Ontario, Canada
Nov 1999
time: 01:49
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
The NDP is not actually that great to anybody who isn't directly connected to the victimhood express. Too many special interests have too big a hand in the party, or that is the perception.


They have been trying to convince us for 40 years now. The results speak for themselves.

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:22
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv.../BNStory/Front/

quote:
Stronach Crosses Floor to Join Liberal Cabinet

In an explosive development leading up to Thursday's dramatic budget vote, Conservative MP Belinda Stronach has crossed the floor to join the Liberal Party as the new Human Resources Development Minister.

Prime Minister Paul Martin said he met with Ms. Stronach – who had been one of the more outspoken and moderate Conservatives – for a private dinner at 24 Sussex Drive Monday evening and after a lengthy discussion, Ms. Stronach said she felt confident that leaving the Tories was the right decision.

"I'm proud to have Belinda Stronach as part of my team," Mr. Martin said at a press conference in Ottawa Tuesday morning, where the official announcement was made.

He said together, they decided she would be more comfortable serving within the Liberal caucus.

Ms. Stronach said she struggled mightily with the decision.

"I found myself at a crossroads," she said, adding that she has become uncomfortable with the direction that Conservative Leader Stephen Harper has been taking the party.


She takes over from Lucienne Robillard who had been HRDC minister and national campaign co-chair.


The unexpected news boosts the Liberal seat count and could alter the outcome of Thursday's budget vote.


Ms. Stronach's move to the Liberal ranks bolsters the Liberal and NDP to 151 seats in total and decreases the Tory and Bloc numbers to 152.

There are three independent MPs in the House – Carolyn Parrish, Chuck Cadman and David Kilgour.

Ms. Parrish, a former Liberal, has said she would vote with the Liberals, which means they would need only the vote of either Mr. Cadman, a former Tory, or Mr. Kilgour, a former Liberal, to win a confidence vote.

(The Speaker would likely break a tie and would vote for the Liberals.) However, it's still unclear which party Mr. Cadman or Mr. Kilgour will support.


Ms. Stronach, who ran for the Tory leadership a year ago, represents the Ontario riding of Newmarket-Aurora.

She had served as international trade critic for the Conservatives.

With reports from Steven Chase in Ottawa

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:28 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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That's huge.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:28 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Suffering from ads?

Just saw it myself. Was about to post it.

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:31
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Perhaps nye should come up with another example of moderate Conservatives.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
Emperor

May 1999
time: 23:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:33
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wow...

so what will it take to cause a change of government now?

would the NDP need to switch sides?

Jon Miller

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:36 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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The Liberal/NDP coalition still doesn't have a majority.

What it does is relieve the pressure on the Liberals to gain all 3 independents (most/all? of whom have ties with the Liberals).

They've gotten a promise of support from 1 of them (parrish)

They need to pick up either Kilgour or Cadman to force a tie (which would throw the vote to the Speaker, a Liberal).

Looks like they'll probably win the budget vote.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
Emperor

May 1999
time: 23:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:37
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yeah..

so what would it take for you to have an election now?

it seems like the people want one

Jon Miller
(maybe I just don't know enough)

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:42 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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The government will fall if the budget fails. The government will also fall if they lose any other formal confidence vote.

It's still very precarious, but slightly less so. Also big news is that there will be a byelection on May 24(?) in Newfoundland if the government doesn't fall before then.

That seat will almost certainly go to either the Liberals or NDP (conservatives were a distant third in the last election there).

That would provide slightly more breathing room as well.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
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May 1999
time: 23:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:48
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so the liberals will need to basically piss off one of their own in order to cause an election?

that doesnt' seem right

Jon Miller

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 17-05-2005 20:50 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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why?

 
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