10-05-2005 13:38									#61
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perhaps it is not hatred, but the truth, because at that time catholicism was what islam has been perverted into today : oppressive, backwards, very conservative, corrupt to the bone ... you name it

	10-05-2005 13:41									#62
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quote: I dont understand Ned, did the movie offer reasons for the Crusades that contradict your post? Btw, it is illogical to suggest some special or unique association exists between liberals and OBL based on some shared hatred of the Catholic Church, Would you say pedophile victims of the Church share OBL's world view if they hate the Church too?

I'm a liberal and I'm in league with OBL!!!

Long time no see, Berz. Where have you been?

	10-05-2005 14:22									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why do right wing Americans think that the rest of the world should share their myopic, provincial and ill-informed views?

I guess for the same reasons you seem to think that your point of view has an relevancy to anyone else.

	10-05-2005 14:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Moulin Rouge was okay, but Chicago was superb.

Except for the dancing which was weak in every scene but the women in prison opening scene (they were pros).

	10-05-2005 15:09									#65
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I saw the movie last night and have to disagree with the accusation that Osama wrote this movie.

For one, no-one has an AK-47 and there are no cave scenes.

But on the serious side, the movie tries its damndest to be even handed, and show religious mania on both sides. It shows both christians and muslims to be on the most part, honourable and human, while the religious fanatics are easily recognisable as the troublemakers of the story.

I do not see it as anti-christian or anti-islam, just a tale about humans and their search for a divine meaning,
which also features the foolishness of a few evil men, who masquerade as devout warriors. Sound familiar?

I would see this movie as a denouncement of fanatics, be they a McVeigh, an Osama or a Jerry Falwell - All are bad.

While there is bad there is also good, personified by the character of Orlando Bloom, and also the dying King of Jerusalem. Saladin is shown as a cynical general, but also shows his respect for christianity when at the end, he carefully picks up a crucifix from the floor and places it on an altar...So much for Osama's screenplay, eh?

All in all, an enjoyable dark age tale, with some awesome battles.
But the movie has a strong element of humanity - And never preaches.

For me, that is a good point.

	10-05-2005 15:17									#66
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I disagree.

	10-05-2005 15:22									#67
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With what?

	10-05-2005 15:32									#68
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With your post. I believe that Bin Laden did write or greatly influence it.

	10-05-2005 15:55									#69
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I owe a copy of Chicago and it is a great movie. Best musical to come out in years.

	10-05-2005 16:06									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi With your post. I believe that Bin Laden did write or greatly influence it.

Then I must heartily laugh at your assessment.

Sorry.

.

	10-05-2005 16:16									#71
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He's not serious /traitor

	10-05-2005 16:34									#72
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I hope so.

I pity anyone who seriously thinks that.

.

	10-05-2005 17:23									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Wasn't Ned the one who came on here and decried Chicago as a horrendous film that was morally degenerate and awful and an affront to morals etc. etc. etc.? That's right... Chicago. The musical.

He also said Finding Nemo was anti-American and pro-drug use

	10-05-2005 17:26									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why do right wing Americans think that the rest of the world should share their myopic, provincial and ill-informed views?

...

DD or JohnT has probably beat me to this. If not, they're slacking off.

	10-05-2005 17:28									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker He also said Finding Nemo was anti-American and pro-drug use

That's a contradiction in terms.

	10-05-2005 17:29									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I owe a copy of Chicago and it is a great movie. Best musical to come out in years.

Agreed.

	10-05-2005 19:09									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker He also said Finding Nemo was anti-American and pro-drug use

No. way.

wtf?

	10-05-2005 19:12									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Let's see...the main characters kill people, are put on trial but get off using perjury, and their celebrity from their trials gets them starring roles on stage, singing and dancing. I give up? What did I miss.

You missed the fact that the movie wasn't being sympathetic to those people, it was a satire of certain attitudes towards such people in society at the time. Of course the main characters were vile...that's what it's trying to say!

Think long and hard about the women's dance number and the one who kept saying "not guilty!"

	10-05-2005 19:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker He also said Finding Nemo was anti-American and pro-drug use

It just appeared so because of those colorful images

	10-05-2005 20:51									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No. way. wtf?

He thought the turtles represented stoners and that the movie was advocating their lifestyle

	10-05-2005 21:39									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I dont understand Ned, did the movie offer reasons for the Crusades that contradict your post? Btw, it is illogical to suggest some special or unique association exists between liberals and OBL based on some shared hatred of the Catholic Church, Would you say pedophile victims of the Church share OBL's world view if they hate the Church too?

It said that the original cause (religion) was a phony, does not mention turk attrocities and basically says that this is illegally occuppied Saracen land. As I said, the more devout the Christian, the more depraved his actions. In this movie, it is the Christians that are doing the attrocities against Arab and Turk.

Now if OBL were writing the movie, he would make it as unbalanced as possible in favor of the Muslim forces would he not. He would write this movie the way it is in fact written.

	10-05-2005 21:44									#82
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis perhaps it is not hatred, but the truth, because at that time catholicism was what islam has been perverted into today : oppressive, backwards, very conservative, corrupt to the bone ... you name it

Certainly it became that in later centuries. But at that time, there was genuine religious fervor in Europe.

	10-05-2005 21:46									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: I dont understand Ned, did the movie offer reasons for the Crusades that contradict your post? Btw, it is illogical to suggest some special or unique association exists between liberals and OBL based on some shared hatred of the Catholic Church, Would you say pedophile victims of the Church share OBL's world view if they hate the Church too? I'm a liberal and I'm in league with OBL!!! Long time no see, Berz. Where have you been?

It is amazing how the views of OBL and commies seem to conicide on many issues. Their common ground includes hostility to Christianity and to America.

	10-05-2005 22:02									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Certainly it became that in later centuries. But at that time, there was genuine religious fervor in Europe.

Hm, killing nearly all non-christian inhabitants of Jerusalem when taking the city 1099 is a bit more than religious fervor, Ned. Let's also not forget the progroms against Jews that often were connected with new crusades (since people didn't understand why they should kill infidels in the Holy Land, but not at home). Sure, big massacres like this in Jerusalem did not happen during every crusade, and there were also chivalric acts, but overall the picture is not very nice for the entire period.

	10-05-2005 22:24									#85
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Here is a summary of the events and battle. The Catholics were highly motivated to defend Jerusalem and envy to die in a final charge -- for their religion. Salah al-Din was equally motivate by religion, saying he intended to kill all Christians in retribution for 1099. He allowed the surrender only after the Christians threatened to destroy the Muslim holy places and to kill their Muslim prisoners. But they set a high price, demanding a lot of gold for each Christian who would leave the city. Any who could not pay the ransom was to be enslaved. In the end, Salah al-Din enslaved 15,000 poor Catholics.

The movie paints an entirely different picture about the motivation of the Christians and Muslims, and is a lie.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/salahdin.html

	10-05-2005 22:26									#86
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Hm, killing nearly all non-christian inhabitants of Jerusalem when taking the city 1099 is a bit more than religious fervor, Ned. Let's also not forget the progroms against Jews that often were connected with new crusades (since people didn't understand why they should kill infidels in the Holy Land, but not at home). Sure, big massacres like this in Jerusalem did not happen during every crusade, and there were also chivalric acts, but overall the picture is not very nice for the entire period.

No doubt that massacre was the main reason the crusades are held in disrepute by all. But the reason for the crusades in the first place was somewhat justified.

	10-05-2005 23:20									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No, the problem is that this purports to be an historical movie and it is entirely inaccurate about history as the Brit historian said.

Yeah, like Braveheart.

	10-05-2005 23:25									#88
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Oh, and lets not forget the Forth crusade and the sacking of Byzantium by the crusaders and their Venetian chums.

	10-05-2005 23:27									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Yeah, like Braveheart.

Or the Patriot, where the Brits murdered American wounded and burned the American women and children in a barn just like the good NAZI's they were.

	10-05-2005 23:27									#90
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Sandman, why you and Osama are indistinguishable in your views!