11-05-2005 07:41									#151
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Shevarnardze tried... believe you me .

	11-05-2005 07:41									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No doubt that massacre was the main reason the crusades are held in disrepute by all. But the reason for the crusades in the first place was somewhat justified.

Ned,
I agree that you have offered reasons that have become acceptable justifications for waging wars but I personally find the idea of war, pillaging, and rape unacceptable and when done in the name of religion an abomination. Bottom line the crusades were wrong. You must agree that the only wars that god actually authorized in his name are either in the bible, koran or torah.

	11-05-2005 09:38									#153
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mned you ar a biogot. simpl ea s that. acholohol distillt he threugh.. and that's the truth.

	11-05-2005 13:29									#154
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I still say the movie is worth going to see.

The accusation that it sympathises with terrorism is retarded.

The movie is respectful to christians and shows them to
be honourable, except for a small handful of corrupt men.

.

	11-05-2005 16:34									#155
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yes, but in the end the christians loose !!!

	11-05-2005 17:09									#156
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis yes, but in the end the christians loose !!!

They don't lose, they only pull out of Jerusalem, and allow the moosies to take it.

And that is after putting up such a fight that Saladin offers terms.

Losing is when the enemy storm the place and kill everyone.

.

	11-05-2005 19:05									#157
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but thats not good enough for ned...

christians always win, didn't you know ?

because they are always right...

	11-05-2005 19:44									#158
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Sarcasm acknowledged.

But Ned should realise that no-one is ever right.

Our history is built on delusions and fables of grandness.

Everyone has their own outlook on the world...

	11-05-2005 20:16									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I'm sorry, Boris. But you liberals are tone deaf to anti-Americanism and anti-Christianity.

Or, more likely, you're so paranoid about it that you infer such feelings into anything you can because it helps make you feel justified in being a lunatic.

quote: In fact, you are shocked when a movie displays genuine patriotism or belief, as in Mel Gibson's the Passion of the Christ, or perhaps in his Braveheart.

I don't think anyone was "shocked" by the belief in PotC, but rather the gore and some subtle anti-semitism. And who the hell said anything bad about Braveheart (besides the British)? You continue to imagine things.

That's why you see Anti-Americanism in everything. Your paranoid mind makes it up. I can't imagine anyone living in such a...well, Nedaverse. What a strange, distorted place it must be!

	11-05-2005 21:28									#160
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Boris, I think your attitude would be entirely different if out of the blue one of the fish in the movie would utter a completely gratuitous smear of gays.

	11-05-2005 21:40									#161
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis but thats not good enough for ned... christians always win, didn't you know ? because they are always right...

It is not whether they win or lose that I object to in this movie. It is that the Christians were portrayed as essentially evil people.

	11-05-2005 21:49									#162
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well, they did pick a fight with something they could not hope to handle and got their arse handed to them.

and catholics were / are people who can not stand the tought that someone can have other, not necessary less noble, ideals in life than they do.

and that is what is shown in the movie. of course you need a vilain. and since it were the christians that instigated this war, it is a christian vilain. simple, and historically not far from the truth.

	11-05-2005 22:22									#163
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis well, they did pick a fight with something they could not hope to handle and got their arse handed to them. and catholics were / are people who can not stand the tought that someone can have other, not necessary less noble, ideals in life than they do. and that is what is shown in the movie. of course you need a vilain. and since it were the christians that instigated this war, it is a christian vilain. simple, and historically not far from the truth.

Pick a fight? Reconquest of Jerusalem had long been on the muslim radar. Salah al-Din was running around he ME in the years prior to the war solidifying his base before he launched the war. He also made alliance with the Eastern Roman Empire in 1185, illustrating his intentions.

Dannubis -- your statement about Catholics this and Catholics that illustrates your own bigotry.

	11-05-2005 23:49									#164
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come on guys... while I know it's tough not to get personal on discussions involving religion... talk the topic and not the posters.

	11-05-2005 23:56									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Boris, I think your attitude would be entirely different if out of the blue one of the fish in the movie would utter a completely gratuitous smear of gays.

Yeah, but that's not at all comparable to what was said in the movie, for pete's sake. You're reading into it something that simply isn't there.

Funny how religious moralists and other conservatives can complain about the evils in America with impunity, but a harmless joke in a kid's movie simply about American's buying things becomes the most awful attack on America ever!

How about when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed 9/11 on Americans? Now that's something to get upset over. Finding Nemo definitely isn't.

	12-05-2005 00:08									#166
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Boris... obviously a cross post to my warning... back on topic... stop with the personal crap.

	12-05-2005 00:43									#167
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quote: harmless joke in a kid's movie simply about American's buying things becomes the most awful attack on America ever!

Yeah, I'm not exactly certain how that joke was anti-American.

	12-05-2005 00:56									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It is that the Christians were portrayed as essentially evil people.

We are talking about Crusaders, right? They were evil!

	14-05-2005 05:00									#169
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Okay, I saw it on thursday.
I can see why Ned does not like it.
It happens to show SOME Christians committing evil acts in the name of god. Was this ever done?
On the other hand, it does not show muslims as being as bad as the Christians.
Ned, I think you should consider that the story was told from the POV of a man who interacted with more Christians than Muslims. It just so happens that the TWO muslims he did interact with were decent guys. There were more good christians than good muslims. There were also more bad Christians than bad Muslims. Only five Saracens(Muslims) actually spoke(by my count).
I imagine that if the story was told from a Saracen POV, there would be more evil Saracens. The most moral character of all was a Christian(Balen). The King of Jerusalem and the Sheriff were pretty good guys as well. So was Saladin and his protege. All in all, I thought it was pretty fair in the portrayals.
I also agree with Ned that Saladin may not be as good as he was portrayed. I do not believe that the king of Jerusalem could have been such a fine upstanding man either.
Two things I was glad to see shown was that both sides thought they were right and that god was on there side.

The movie was decent. I want to see it again for the way it was shot. Certain scenes remind of 28 days later. I wonder if they used minidv or high def cameras. The movie has increased my already high interest in that time period.

	14-05-2005 05:21									#170
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quote: Only five Saracens(Muslims) actually spoke(by my count).

Ned is PWNED!

	14-05-2005 11:48									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Okay, I saw it on thursday. I can see why Ned does not like it. It happens to show SOME Christians committing evil acts in the name of god. Was this ever done? On the other hand, it does not show muslims as being as bad as the Christians. Ned, I think you should consider that the story was told from the POV of a man who interacted with more Christians than Muslims. It just so happens that the TWO muslims he did interact with were decent guys. There were more good christians than good muslims. There were also more bad Christians than bad Muslims. Only five Saracens(Muslims) actually spoke(by my count). I imagine that if the story was told from a Saracen POV, there would be more evil Saracens. The most moral character of all was a Christian(Balen). The King of Jerusalem and the Sheriff were pretty good guys as well. So was Saladin and his protege. All in all, I thought it was pretty fair in the portrayals. I also agree with Ned that Saladin may not be as good as he was portrayed. I do not believe that the king of Jerusalem could have been such a fine upstanding man either. Two things I was glad to see shown was that both sides thought they were right and that god was on there side. The movie was decent. I want to see it again for the way it was shot. Certain scenes remind of 28 days later. I wonder if they used minidv or high def cameras. The movie has increased my already high interest in that time period.

Excellent post, PAX, and very fair. Earlier in this thread I posted a rendition of this event from the Muslim side. Even that rendition is much fairer to the Christians than this movie.

Salah al-Din has gone down in history as a good man because he kept his word on deals he struck with Christians. He was fair and honorable. I have no qualms about that. But the way they have the "Christian" hero saying that all they have to fight for is themselves because no religion has a claim on Jerusalem is a total fabrication. The Christians were zealots and true believers at that time. One of the reasons they fought so hard is that they did not want the tens of thousand of Christian women to be captured by the Muslims and forced to convert. This is the exact opposite of what they had the bishop of Jerusalem saying.

	14-05-2005 11:49									#172
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quote: the "Christian" hero saying that all they have to fight for is themselves because no religion has a claim on Jerusalem is a total fabrication.

Um.. that paints the Christians in a HIGHLY favorable light.

	14-05-2005 13:35									#173
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Imran, that is a very "modern" view of Jerusalem, though. I hardly think it existed in Western thinking at the time. Given that the fall of Jerusalem in 1187 quickly brought two more crusade in a dozen years, I think that most Westerners still held the belief that it was important to keep Jerusalem in "Western" Christian hands.

	14-05-2005 13:51									#174
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But it paints the Christians in a HIGHLY favorable light... totally contradicting the title to this thread.

	14-05-2005 15:27									#175
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I may have overlooked some posts... but how did anti-americanism enter into a debate over the crusades?

Anti-americanism is a sloppy term... criticism of Bush/Conservatism/Christianity/Capitalism does not amount to anti-americanism, any more than I can be said to be unaustralian if I criticized John Howard and his proposal to de-regulate the industrial relations system. The fact is that America is such a diverse and many shaded nation with so many different historical and philosophical themes intertwining to form it that the term Americanism appears to me simply be an attempt by one side of politics to monopolize the claim to legitimacy. This can be seen in foreign policy. How is it that criticism of Bush's foreign policy can amount to anti-americanism when such criticism can easily find it's philosophical origin in the thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, when he warned against "foreign entanglements"?... and even then Jefferson's view has no monopoly either... American foreign policy has shifted and transformed so many times that neither can be said to be any more legitimate than the other.
America has always had in it's system an institutional and philosophical mode of self-criticism.... there is no one America, and no single American-ism, and anyone who says so is betraying illiberal and dangerously undemocratic motives.

	14-05-2005 15:41									#176
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quote: This can be seen in foreign policy. How is it that criticism of Bush's foreign policy can amount to anti-americanism when such criticism can easily find it's philosophical origin in the thoughts of Thomas Jefferson, when he warned against "foreign entanglements"?...

Actually, that was Washington in his farewell address of 1796:

quote: The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Note that W. was talking about Europe - the US's role in the Pacific and the rest of the world was unimaginable to him at the time.

	14-05-2005 17:04									#177
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Come on guys, this thread is getting boring. Start making it personal.

	14-05-2005 17:07									#178
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Ah I see. My confusion arose from the fact that in american politics we were taught that that strand of thought was called "Jeffersonian" foreign policy... part of a 4 part typology of American foreign policy:

Jeffersonian - avoiding foreign entanglements
Jacksonian - emphasis on honour and military accomplishment
Hamiltonian - emphasis on securing commerce
Wilsonian - exporting democracy

I'd say Bush's policy is an amalgam of the latter three strands.

	14-05-2005 17:10									#179
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Come on guys, this thread is getting boring. Start making it personal.

Oh, just shut up, you....you....DaShi!!!

	14-05-2005 17:14									#180
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That's the spirit!