14-05-2005 10:48									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Oh, nobody disputes that there is racism towards Hispanics in this country. And you don't think that has an effect on all this railing against illegal immigration from Mexico? Not even unconsciously? Come one, wake up, Shi!

It may well have an effect. And on the other extreme, deep-seated negative feelings towards America and it's role in the world might lead some people to not objectively examine what America should do to protect itself. Anything is possible as the cause for something, but unless we do a psychological evaluation it's hard to know a person's feelings.

As a variety of polls indicate, the great majority of Americans oppose illegal immigration: http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=1167&c=2

Is it possible that the great majority of Americans are racists and that is the reason why? Sure. But there is no evidence to back that as the cause for views on illegal immigration, and not fears of economic security and the like.

But because the argument against illegal immigration is not in itself racist, it's an incredibly unjust position to take to associate opposition to illegal immigration with racism.

	14-05-2005 11:24									#92
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quote: But because the argument against illegal immigration is not in itself racist, it's an incredibly unjust position to take to associate opposition to illegal immigration with racism.

No it isn't. 'Economic security' is a pretext for racism. We don't want those Mexicans to take our jobs! Just like all the anti-globalization rhetoric centering on jobs being located in India is a racist device (or do you really think unions are concerned about accents.. if so some areas of the US are good places not to put call centers).

Its the same phenomenon we witness when people see a young black male walking towards them on the street and they go to the other side of the street. Perhaps they say it is because security concerns about muggings and whatnot, but really it's a pretext for perhaps subconscious racism.

The mere fact is that people don't really take too well of the new guys and whether it is in Europe, Asia, or the US, there is subconcious and conscious racism involved in immigration debates.

	14-05-2005 11:53									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi So because the problem that exists in one place exists elsewhere, we can't discuss the problem in that place? That is complete and total BS. You are just saying whatever to keep up your slander of others being racist.

It's not slander, it's the truth. It's also more xenophobic than racist. If you were REALLY concerened about border security, you would include the whole big picture.

quote: Right, and as I already mentioned to GePap, terrorist always follow the same patterns they did before, and the fact that we don't have documentaion of terrorist crossing on the Mexican border means it hasn't happened because our intelligence captures everything.

Sweet. I hope that one day we have a total security state, where we have guards at every checkpoint, asking to see papers. That way we can track everyone that comes through.

Fascism

quote: Yep, we were wrong there. So what do you want to do Ted, just ignore any intelligence we get about terrorist activities from now? Intelligence isn't always going to be perfect, but it's what we have to work on. Let me ask you Ted, if we do have intelligence about a possible threat, do you really not want us to take precautions in response?

We could take precautions based on reality and not preconceived xenophobic, racist, paranoia. We pick on Mexico because we can. Why are you scared to address the Canadian issue anyway? What about direct access from airports? What about the internal threat from our own citizens?

Or, be practical and not freak out all the damn time.

It's all silly paranoia.

quote: If there is anyone who isn't think through his stuff critically, it's you.

Not really. I am correct 100 % of the time.

	14-05-2005 11:55									#94
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By the way, tell me how many Americans really want to work jobs that illegal immigrants are taking??

These are poor people who are mostly unskilled, you see them in services, fast food joints, and agriculture.

Those jobs are always going to have openings anyway. I don't see people on a waiting list to get a job at McDonald's.

	14-05-2005 11:59									#95
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I consider xenophobia to be the same thing as racism, so we're on the same page, Ted

	14-05-2005 13:28									#97
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quote: Mexico gets 100 times more coverage about its open border.

We dont see millions of Canadians illegally rushing our border every year either.

The main deterrant to Al Qauda entering from Mexico is the common goal of the Mexican government and crime sindicates (drugs) to keep the border open for economic reasons, and that requires a serious effort to keep an eye on ME Muslims trying to enter Mexico. I dont know if Mexico has improved its prison system but I remember warnings about getting busted down there. Canada would be much more inviting if I wanted to sneek in.

	14-05-2005 18:51									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The Khadr family seems to disagree with that notion.

The Khadr family moved to Canada decades ago, long before this was a major concern. They've been denied Canadian passports, despite having citizenship, and I'm pretty sure their movements are kept track of.

The US border patrol has, I'm sure, their pictures posted in every office.

Good luck to them trying to enter the US.

	14-05-2005 19:19									#99
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It seems to me that based on this thread calling someone a racist is the equivilant of calling someone a communist because it allows you to dismiss someone's arguements with little more than a hand waving condescension. None of you (Imran or Ted) have from what I've seen have addressed Shi's arguement that the Mexican border is a problem that should be dealt with. Well I will admit that Ted has defended having a slave class in the country but that's about the extent of it.

	15-05-2005 02:52									#100
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Cause I don't see the huge problem that needs to be dealt with. Illegal immigrants are coming in? So what? It hasn't caused a collapse in the US economy. Hell, it may have helped it due to their work for less that minimum wage.

I'm for open borders anyway, so this illegal immigration 'crisis' is, IMO, silly. There is a reason these people are coming over and that is because they are looking for a better way of life. Why deny that to them? Because some white guy may lose his job? Pffft!

These border patrol people are in it to stop poor Mexicans from crossing. They won't be stopping drug trafficers... hell, that might be US police!

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 15-05-2005 at 03:03

	15-05-2005 03:15									#101
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It seems to me that based on this thread calling someone a racist is the equivilant of calling someone a communist because it allows you to dismiss someone's arguements with little more than a hand waving condescension. None of you (Imran or Ted) have from what I've seen have addressed Shi's arguement that the Mexican border is a problem that should be dealt with. Well I will admit that Ted has defended having a slave class in the country but that's about the extent of it.

We actually MAKE arguments.

You just make posts about other people's posts, without having the courage to express your own convictions.


You're like that insecure girl that gets a bad boy boyfriend and then hides behind him. Man up for once and stand on your own two feet.

	15-05-2005 03:16									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Cause I don't see the huge problem that needs to be dealt with. Illegal immigrants are coming in? So what? It hasn't caused a collapse in the US economy. Hell, it may have helped it due to their work for less that minimum wage.

	15-05-2005 03:23									#103
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I differ slightly from Imran in that I think limited immigration is a good thing. But I agree with the spirit or what he is saying. We are already patrolling the border heavily enough. However this latest round of paranoia is ridiculous. You put your response relative to the problem at hand. And the response Shi expressed represents the overkill of paranoia and FEAR that is so rampant in this country. It's out of proportion and yes, it's rooted in racism, whether you guys realize it or not.

Secondly, alot of the big immigrant crises that put a strain on social services came because of waves of refugees that spilled in from the civil wars in Central America. (Which we were playing a direct role in).

Finally, unlike some people in this thread, my state gets hit harder by immigration than anyplace else.

Last edited by Ted Striker on 15-05-2005 at 03:28

	15-05-2005 03:31									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Secondly, alot of the big immigrant crises that put a strain on social services came because of waves of refugees that spilled in from the civil wars in Central America. (Which we were playing a direct role in).

Actually no, the Mexicans do a good job of locking down their southern border. Scream racism all day long until you are blue in the face, it does not change the fact that they are a massive net drain on our economy,they are bringing up diseases that we eliminated previously, they aren't going to do a damned thing for social security,and a **** load of criminals and even some terrorists are taking advantage of the border.

	15-05-2005 03:33									#105
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quote: ...they are ...they are...they aren't.. criminals and...terrorists

Us and them language.

A very good example of fear and paranoia. Thanks for backing up my point.

Secondly, you don't know what you are talking about, there is a big population of Salvadoran immigrants here for a reason.

	15-05-2005 03:37									#106
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Hide your daughters!!!

Senor Guapo is coming to steal your job and he is bringing Osama Bin Laden with him!!!

	15-05-2005 03:38									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker By the way, tell me how many Americans really want to work jobs that illegal immigrants are taking??

18 million, I forget whether that is native born only or also the legal immigrants, but 18 million. It also ignores the fact that many of these businesses will have to invest in capital/labor saving devices such as the on the vine raisin growing technique the Austrailians are using.

	15-05-2005 03:40									#108
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So you're telling me that 18 million people are out of work because illegal immigrants took their jobs?

	15-05-2005 03:42									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Secondly, you don't know what you are talking about, there is a big population of Salvadoran immigrants here for a reason.

MS-13 gets all the press, but most of the time people are seeing SUR-13,the Mexican gang.

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Us and them language. A very good example of fear and paranoia. Thanks for backing up my point.

How should I address them? thanks for making my point by totally avoiding my arguments by the way.

	15-05-2005 03:43									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker So you're telling me that 18 million people are out of work because illegal immigrants took their jobs?

No I am saying that there are 18 million people in direct competition for those jobs because that is what you asked.

	15-05-2005 03:44									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha MS-13 gets all the press, but most of the time people are seeing SUR-13,the Mexican gang.

See what I mean? You can't even describe these people without associating them with gangs!!

What state do you live in? Do you even know any Hispanic people? You describe them like aliens from Mars or something?

	15-05-2005 03:46									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha No I am saying that there are 18 million people in direct competition for those jobs because that is what you asked.

Yeah right.

Do you HONESTLY see people complaining because they can't get a job at McDonald's? GET REAL.


As for your technology panacea argument, it's not gonna work. There are always going to have to be people out there to do something manually, whether you like it or not.

	15-05-2005 03:46									#113
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I live in Texas. and keep it up.

	15-05-2005 03:46									#114
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That explains it.

	15-05-2005 03:47									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Yeah right. Do you HONESTLY see people complaining because they can't get a job at McDonald's? GET REAL. As for your technology panacea argument, it's not gonna work. There are always going to have to be people out there to do something manually, whether you like it or not.

so we need a ghettoized slave labor class instead of paying the people(native born and legal immigrants) we do have more?

Oh, and if you have evidence to the contrary, then this guy lied before congress:
"Testimony before the U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on the Judiciary
Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims

March 24, 2004

Statement of Mark Krikorian
Executive Director, Center for Immigration Studies
...
It is indeed likely that middle-class Americans would not be interested in most of the jobs held by Mexican immigrants, because they are generally low-paying jobs done by unskilled workers. However, it is also clear that there are millions of Americans who are already doing precisely these kinds of jobs. In March 2003, there were 8.8 million native-born adults without a high-school education who were employed, 1.3 million native-born dropouts unemployed, and a further 6.8 million not even in the work force. There is a good deal of evidence that these Americans – nearly 17 million people – are in direct competition with Mexican immigrants – i.e., these are jobs that Americans will do and are doing already.
..."

	15-05-2005 03:50									#116
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Even if you pay them the minimum wage, they're still the ones who are going to do the jobs, cause I don't see Bob down the corner wanting to do the work. Okay, so you've now moved them up from slave labor class to service class. That's what we should be doing.


Our entire service class here in Cali is made up of Hispanic immigrants (legal and illegal) making minimum wage anyway.

By the way the slave labor thing is a joke. Those people choose to be there, even if they get exploited when the arrive.

	15-05-2005 03:52									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Ted Striker The Center for Research on Hitting It Do you HONESTLY see people complaining because they can't get a job at McDonald's? GET REAL.

	15-05-2005 03:53									#118
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They might appreciate a pay raise. And the rest of us would appreciate not having 15 billion dollars leave the economy every year.

	15-05-2005 04:02									#119
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Which has entirely NOTHING to do with the illegal immigrants.

If you want low level workers to get more money then talk to your Congressman to get the minimum wage raised. McJobs businesses are going to pay their workers (legal or illegal) the minimum they can until the government tells them to pay more.

	15-05-2005 04:07									#120
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I somehow doubt illegal immigrants are being paid even minimum wage. And you also seem to think that wages would stay at minimum wages if the labor market for those jobs were restricted to only the legal and native born in those categories.