16-05-2005 04:04									#1
	Koran being flushed story was fake. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Do you folks remember the story about US soldiers supposedly flushing a Koran down the toilet at Gitmo? The story caused riots in several Muslim countries (most notably in Afghanistan) and caused numerous Imams to call for holy war against the US but there is one little problem... The story was a fake and it never happened.

The editor of Newsweek has written a retraction and has said the source was shaky to begin with but under scrutiny has now disavowed the original claim, the problem is now that the inflammatory article has been written it will be impossible to convince many people in the Muslim world it was a hoax. I wish these media sources would be more careful about checking their sources before dropping bombs like this because it causes tremendous damage to the war on terrorism.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156591,00.html

	16-05-2005 04:10									#3
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Wish they could say the same thing about the torture of prisoners...

	16-05-2005 04:12									#4
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Not that it makes the Afghan riots seem much more stupid than they already were, but it does say something about the "shaky" state of journalism today.

	16-05-2005 04:13									#5
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiap...uran/index.html

That's the CNN article for people who like sources other then Fox. I can't help but feel sad for Afghanistan when I look at that picture of a child, presumably, screaming to kill the infidels. So young and so filled with hate his parents must be very enlightened people.

Here's MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7864705/

BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4549933.stm

	16-05-2005 04:14									#6
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quote: Originally posted by atawa Wish they could say the same thing about the torture of prisoners...

The only torture that's been confirmed was the stuff at Abu Gherrab and the people responsible are all behind bars. Or at least the people who carried out the illegal acts are though the officers who contributed to creating the conditions in which the abuse took place have all walked.

	16-05-2005 04:17									#7
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Confirmed by who?

	16-05-2005 04:19									#8
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It probably won't help to send the newsweek journalists to Afghanistan and let them try to say they were wrong, but putting them into hotspots maight learn them to do a better job in the future (I doubt it seriously, but even one less headlinewhore journalist will be an improvement).

	16-05-2005 04:19									#9
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You might find this interesting reading:

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng

	16-05-2005 04:25									#10
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Most claims of torture are overrated.

One man's "torture" is another man's "moderate pressure". Those aren't kindergarten kids we're talking about. Besides, I would trust detainees to claim "torture" if their meals are served 10 minutes late one day.

	16-05-2005 04:26									#11
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Newsweek should be brought up on charges for creating a false story

This is the equivalent of shouting fire in a crowded theatre, just for fun, and then someone dies because they get trampled


On the other hand, we have already created a tense environment with the BS our interrogators are doing to these prisoners, on top of Abu Gharib.

	16-05-2005 04:28									#12
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Amnesty international is something like PETA in that you have to take what they say with a grain of salt since the organization is filled with raving lunitics.

In any event we were talking about torture not Amnesty International questioning if the people at GItmo should be classified as POWs or Unlawful Combatants.

	16-05-2005 04:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Most claims of torture are overrated. One man's "torture" is another man's "moderate pressure". Those aren't kindergarten kids we're talking about. Besides, I would trust detainees to claim "torture" if their meals are served 10 minutes late one day.

Well its actualy the ones released (proclaimed innocent by the US) that make these accusations, when you're caged for 24/7 its kinda hard making accusations to the outside world. Besides, whatever happened to innocent untill proven guilty?

	16-05-2005 04:30									#14
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Regardles of Amnesty International, Guantanamo has a documented history of holding INNOCENT people against their will, without charges, and they were not released until foreign governments like the UK asked for them back.

That's dispicable on our part. Now those people are all returning to their countries, badmouthing us every chance they get.

It's a public relations nightmare that is doing more damage than people realize.

	16-05-2005 04:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin you have to take what they say with a grain of salt since the organization is filled with raving lunitics.

For a moment I thought you talked about your current administration

	16-05-2005 04:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by atawa Well its actualy the ones released (proclaimed innocent by the US) that make these accusations, when you're caged for 24/7 its kinda hard making accusations to the outside world. Besides, whatever happened to innocent untill proven guilty?

Whatever happened to keeping a thread on topic?

	16-05-2005 04:33									#17
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I agree the Bush administrations policies about Gitmo and the lack of Judicial review are wrong. The claim was that torture was occuring which is very different from disputes of one's legal status.

	16-05-2005 04:35									#18
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Fair enough

	16-05-2005 04:35									#19
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According to international law practices in gitmo are classified as torture, reason for the bush administration to just redefine the word torture.

	16-05-2005 04:38									#20
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Yeah, I've mentioned this alot, the "redefinition" of torture so it doesn't include things like fixed positions.

Then people come in with, "that's not real torture!"

I'd like to see them hold an awkward position for 8 hours straight and tell me how easy it is.

	16-05-2005 04:42									#21
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quote: Originally posted by atawa According to international law practices in gitmo are classified as torture, reason for the bush administration to just redefine the word torture.

Specifically what practice is torture?

	16-05-2005 04:45									#22
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You'll have no permanent damage, physicaly at least, from those practices but putting people in aircon (read freezing/boiling) rooms with stroboscope lights and earsplitting music for hours on end will lead to halucinations at first and insanity in later stages.

I realy wonder what they are planning on doing with these people in the long run.

	16-05-2005 04:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Specifically what practice is torture?

Read the raving lunisite

	16-05-2005 04:46									#24
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It hasn't been "redefined" to become less inclusive, it's the other way around. Over the years the term "torture" in everyday use has been broadened considerably, to serve the cause of politicizing activists, who don't know the first thing about the affairs they're criticizing.

	16-05-2005 04:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by atawa You'll have no permanent damage, physicaly at least, from those practices but putting people in aircon (read freezing/boiling) rooms with stroboscope lights and earsplitting music for hours on end will lead to halucinations at first and insanity in later stages. I realy wonder what they are planning on doing with these people in the long run.

Yup, which is why they love these methods so much, it leave no permanent physical scars.

The mental damage, like you said, can be permanent.

	16-05-2005 04:52									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Winston It hasn't been "redefined" to become less inclusive, it's the other way around. Over the years the term "torture" in everyday use has been broadened considerably, to serve the cause of politicizing activists, who don't know the first thing about the affairs they're criticizing.

YOU go stand like this for 4 hours and then tell me how you feel.

I doubt you even last 15 minutes.

A sshole

	16-05-2005 04:52									#27
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Charming. And so very relevant to the point I was making.

But it's still a bit of a mystery what all this has to do with the fake Newsweek story and the riots that ensued.

	16-05-2005 04:53									#28
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I thought that the OP was supposed to start a discussion about the results of bad journalism but I seem to be wrong.

The killings and damages caused by those who made the original fake history doesn't seem to bother many. Instead people start talking about torture at gitmo etc - how come ? is it because bashing incompetent journalists isn't as satisfying as bashing Bush ?

Journalists are honored when they dig up serious matters (watergate etc, you name it), but when they seriously screw up like this, noone seems to be interested.

	16-05-2005 04:53									#29
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It's not a mystery at all

We already set the enviornment by all the torture crap that has gone down

So when they heard the story, of course they believed it

	16-05-2005 04:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Winston It hasn't been "redefined" to become less inclusive, it's the other way around. Over the years the term "torture" in everyday use has been broadened considerably, to serve the cause of politicizing activists, who don't know the first thing about the affairs they're criticizing.

Too easy but anyway: How do you know these activists dont know what they are talking about? Most information comes from former prisoners, some from the red cross and even the FBI. I'd say they know a lot more about this subject then anyone on this forum or the general public.