18-05-2005 15:05									#31
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Locotus: of course the french have a history in europe, but I mean: modern history has the germans as the evil nation of europe.

The Germans were the 'evil' nation of a period of 30 years, the French were the 'evil' nation of much of the 17th-19th centuries. Yes, in those three decades all spite against the French must've completely disappeared from history and it must have been regrown from scratch after WWII...

quote: But more and more the germans are prefered above the germans. That says much.

Do you have any evidence to back up that claim or do we just have to believe you because you are the Great Wise CyberShy Who Knows All?

Because there are few nations in Europe who do not still reserve a special kind of rivalry for football matches against Germany, something which is not at all the case for France. And in many European countries asking for directions while passing for a German will still get you sent in completely the wrong direction, something which the French won't fall victim to nearly as often. And in the Netherlands at least, few Germans will never have heard the frase "Ik wil m'n fiets terug" ("I want my bicycle back") -- as someone with many German friends (I live only a few miles from the German border) I can testify of that. So appearances are certainly against you...

quote: - why no demonstrations against Putin in New York, London, Madrid, Paris and Rome? - why no demonstrations against China in New York, London, .....

I presume you mean as opposed to protesting against the Americans for starting a war in Iraq?

Maybe because the governments of most of the countries where protests against that war were held went (or threatened to go) against the will of their people, whereas western governments *are* acting in line with the will of the people with regard to Russia and China? (I.e. mention the human rights issues whenever convenient but not care enough to take serious action).

Or maybe the situations in China and Russia are largely seen as internal affairs and many agree that one shouldn't interfere in those, whereas the war in Iraq was an international affair?

Or because everyone knew the war in Iraq was started over the aforementioned 'pack of lies', whereas the Kremlin and Beijing hardly bother to sugarcoat their motives in Chechnya and Tibet (and in internal affairs) -- at least to the outside world?

But most importantly, maybe because affairs in China and Russia (and Cote d'Ivoire) are all a big "ver-van-m'n-bed show" (far-away-from-home affair) and people just don't care, whereas the American politics hit much closer to home?

quote: - why no demonstrations against french behavior in cote'd ivoire in New York......

Aside from the fact that 99% of the people outside of Africa just don't give a rats ass about that continent and wouldn't even bother to shrug their shoulders if a big meteor struck tomorrow and wiped out all life in that continent? (I mean, if 2 genocides in a decade and twice the number of deaths of 9/11 every single day as a result of AIDS, war and poverty don't evoke anything...)

Maybe because the French were the only ones who actually cared and who bothered to at least try to keep the warring factions apart and protect the civilian population and to uphold the cease-fire they were supposed to uphold, rather than just stand by and watch as thousands of innocent civilians got butchered, as say the Dutch did in Srebrenica? (How many protests were held over that BTW?)

quote: - why no demonstrations against Kim yon Il? - why no demonstrations against Saddam Hussein wihle he still reigned?

Again the too-far-from-home argument applies.

Plus, there are about 200 nations in the world where people don't enjoy the freedom and democracy that we enjoy, where on earth are people going to start? Would you have them rotate, protest against a different regime every week, so they'd get to every issue protested against about once every 2-3 years?

The norm in this world is not freedom and democracy, the norm is oppression, dictatorship, corruption, poverty, etc. Sad as many may find that to be (but everything is relative), protesting against that is like protesting against rain...

quote: - where are the anti-bomb-people who lined up in Bagdad to form a human shield against the americans right now? Why no human shield against the terrorists in Bagdad? There are more human shields needed then ever!

Because those human shields are westerners, exactly the people the terrorists want to target. That would not be forming a human shield, that would be forming a human bull's eye...

	18-05-2005 15:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ah yes. But I thought our ancient hatred had merely degenerated in the occasional bar brawl, bad language, and crap torygraph article. I mean, things have never been the same since Fashoda

Yeah true, it's more habitual now rather than genuinely nasty.

Other than the generation that fought WWII I don't think anyone really has much of a problem with the Germans though, other than in football.

	18-05-2005 15:38									#33
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btw, looking a bit into it, I notice the authors of the study aren't sociologists, but are trying to see a pro-Europe book with a point (i.e, that we have negative attitudes toward each other, and that we should work at reinforcing positive attitudes).

I wonder if there's an actual sociological study that can say the extent of negative attitudes toward France, and toward other countries as well.

	18-05-2005 15:40									#34
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I like the fact that the French used almost exactly the same adjectives to describe the Brits as we used to describe them.

	18-05-2005 16:23									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus The Germans were the 'evil' nation of a period of 30 years, the French were the 'evil' nation of much of the 17th-19th centuries. Yes, in those three decades all spite against the French must've completely disappeared from history and it must have been regrown from scratch after WWII... Do you have any evidence to back up that claim or do we just have to believe you because you are the Great Wise CyberShy Who Knows All? Because there are few nations in Europe who do not still reserve a special kind of rivalry for football matches against Germany, something which is not at all the case for France. And in many European countries asking for directions while passing for a German will still get you sent in completely the wrong direction, something which the French won't fall victim to nearly as often. And in the Netherlands at least, few Germans will never have heard the frase "Ik wil m'n fiets terug" ("I want my bicycle back") -- as someone with many German friends (I live only a few miles from the German border) I can testify of that. So appearances are certainly against you... I presume you mean as opposed to protesting against the Americans for starting a war in Iraq? Maybe because the governments of most of the countries where protests against that war were held went (or threatened to go) against the will of their people, whereas western governments *are* acting in line with the will of the people with regard to Russia and China? (I.e. mention the human rights issues whenever convenient but not care enough to take serious action). Or maybe the situations in China and Russia are largely seen as internal affairs and many agree that one shouldn't interfere in those, whereas the war in Iraq was an international affair? Or because everyone knew the war in Iraq was started over the aforementioned 'pack of lies', whereas the Kremlin and Beijing hardly bother to sugarcoat their motives in Chechnya and Tibet (and in internal affairs) -- at least to the outside world? But most importantly, maybe because affairs in China and Russia (and Cote d'Ivoire) are all a big "ver-van-m'n-bed show" (far-away-from-home affair) and people just don't care, whereas the American politics hit much closer to home? Aside from the fact that 99% of the people outside of Africa just don't give a rats ass about that continent and wouldn't even bother to shrug their shoulders if a big meteor struck tomorrow and wiped out all life in that continent? (I mean, if 2 genocides in a decade and twice the number of deaths of 9/11 every single day as a result of AIDS, war and poverty don't evoke anything...) Maybe because the French were the only ones who actually cared and who bothered to at least try to keep the warring factions apart and protect the civilian population and to uphold the cease-fire they were supposed to uphold, rather than just stand by and watch as thousands of innocent civilians got butchered, as say the Dutch did in Srebrenica? (How many protests were held over that BTW?) Again the too-far-from-home argument applies. Plus, there are about 200 nations in the world where people don't enjoy the freedom and democracy that we enjoy, where on earth are people going to start? Would you have them rotate, protest against a different regime every week, so they'd get to every issue protested against about once every 2-3 years? The norm in this world is not freedom and democracy, the norm is oppression, dictatorship, corruption, poverty, etc. Sad as many may find that to be (but everything is relative), protesting against that is like protesting against rain... Because those human shields are westerners, exactly the people the terrorists want to target. That would not be forming a human shield, that would be forming a human bull's eye...

So basically, you're just saying that the US drew the short straw.

	18-05-2005 16:50									#36
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quote: The Dutch describe them as "agitated, talkative and shallow." The Spanish see them as "cold, distant, vain and impolite"

Imagine what the Dutch and the Spanish think of eachother.

	18-05-2005 16:53									#37
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Did the poll ask all of these people to describe all of the other nationalities of Europe? Maybe Europeans simply despise each other.

	18-05-2005 16:59									#38
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The French were quite popular in Poland, they were always in the first 4 most liked nations, but I don't know if it hasn't changed after their president told Poland to shut up and other recent events.

	18-05-2005 17:56									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Did the poll ask all of these people to describe all of the other nationalities of Europe? Maybe Europeans simply despise each other.

I don't know, but it doesn't look like it (judging the author's book by its blurb). The study seems to fuel a book that is aimed at the French market.

	18-05-2005 17:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by axi Imagine what the Dutch and the Spanish think of eachother.

well we all come to there beaches in the summer and do dumb things when we are drunk so they wont like us...but they cant say that to us because we have money

	18-05-2005 17:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson The French were quite popular in Poland, they were always in the first 4 most liked nations, but I don't know if it hasn't changed after their president told Poland to shut up and other recent events.

That, and the recent disagreements regarding the EU (especially God in the constitution, which I imagine is a touchy topic in Poland as much as in France) have probably strained the image.

I am under the impression that the French have grown from "indifferent and rather sympathetic" toward Poland in the past, to become "rather hostile" now.

	18-05-2005 19:55									#42
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At least we Germans hate the Poles more than the French.

	18-05-2005 20:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy That's my point. I can see how people have a problem with Bush and his decisions. (Eventhough I think I can explain and counter those arguments) But the bush-hatred is really weird compared to all I said above.

Hardly surprising at all. The source of the hate is the left which wants to see America reduced in power. Any American president who uses American power to extend our influence is opposed by the left. They did the same to Reagan, recall.

Also, Bush, like Reagan, supports conservative social values like limiting our now unlimited abortion rights. This kind of thinking really sets the left off.

Finally, both Reagan and Bush were "religious." To the left, anyone who is religious is stupid and must be derided as such. Guys like Bill Mahar (sp?) openly say this all the time.

	18-05-2005 20:21									#44
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"My European friends have demonstrated an impressing perspicacity ; this portrait is really like me : I am agitated, arrogant, chauvinist, cold, dirty, disobedient, disorganised, distant, egocentric bons vivants, flesh-loving, frivolous, humourless, immoral, impolite, nannied, neo-colonialist, offhand, preaching, pretentious, righteous, self obsessed, shallow, snob, stubborn, talkative and vain."

DAVOUT, I don't think you're "offhand".

	18-05-2005 20:43									#45
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy But at the eurovision festival there's nobody speaking itialian or spanish. Oh, and about the dutch and the germans. A recent poll showed that the hatred of the dutch is almost gone. Only among those who were in the war there's still some anti-germans sentiment. But 50- likes the germans. And it's well known that the germans like the dutch as well.

Sorry I have germans who tell different... especially in football...
There was lots of rejoice in Germany when Netherlands didn't qualify for the last world championship.. it was almost like a national holiday I heard.

quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword well about the not speaking english part...the entire northern part of Europe ending at belgium and austria will probably be able to speak english below that the is seriously terrible (spain, france, italia, portugal) (dont know about the greeks)...i was strassbourg for a cross europe debate between schools (this was 4 years ago) and during the normal debate the langauge was english...result...there wasnt any real debate because one half couldnt understand the other half and the other half couldnt even understand eachother

I have heard it isn't so bad in Portugal... and in Greece I can personally tell that it's okay..
Once we were riding in a train and the conductor tried to help us with our route in Greece... we didn't understand so some passenger jumped up to translate into english.
We also had no other problems..

You know, small countries are much better when it comes to foreign languages.


Anyway, everybody hates the french and yet it's the country that worldwide has most tourists.. this is illogical.

I like the french actually.

	18-05-2005 20:57									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "My European friends have demonstrated an impressing perspicacity ; this portrait is really like me : I am agitated, arrogant, chauvinist, cold, dirty, disobedient, disorganised, distant, egocentric bons vivants, flesh-loving, frivolous, humourless, immoral, impolite, nannied, neo-colonialist, offhand, preaching, pretentious, righteous, self obsessed, shallow, snob, stubborn, talkative and vain." DAVOUT, I don't think you're "offhand".

I will try to improve my offhandness because I intend to apply for the title of perfect French of the year.

	18-05-2005 20:58									#47
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Well deserved, I might add.

	18-05-2005 21:06									#48
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so what the french? .fir

	18-05-2005 21:25									#49
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I don't think the French are hated, it's more of a kind of thing, as in: "not again..always the same with them, i'nit".

Germans on the other hand...

There's a very persitent rumour going around that orginally the Bishops had elected an African pope, but Ratzinger already put his bathtowl on the balcony, so...

	18-05-2005 21:33									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Other than the generation that fought WWII I don't think anyone really has much of a problem with the Germans though, other than in football.

And the towels on sunbeds.

Edit - @alva, I take it its not just a British complaint about Germans then.

	18-05-2005 22:04									#51
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Nope, pretty universal I'd say.

	18-05-2005 22:09									#52
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I love the French!!!!!

I prefer to hate individuals anyway - it saves me plenty of time (and spleen, to expend on those who most merit it).

	19-05-2005 00:02									#53
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that "hatred"/rivalries the english/americans have for the french is unknown here. unknown is also the "surrender monkeys" bit. i'd say the overall feeling is rather positive because of old ties such as "grece - france alliance"that has endured in the past.
i dont know about the "north" but france is relatively viewed ok here. then you have the french culture. there are stong ties with certain politicians of the socialists with french and greek. like jacque lang and melina mercouri.... so the overall picture i would say is rather positive but not something special. france has no problems in greece. apart for the cultural ties france never seemed to threaten greece in recent history by giving leverage to countries that have difference with greece. that contradicts with other western countries who have far more negative image. but as i said nothing special but rather positive

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 19-05-2005 at 00:09

	19-05-2005 00:04									#54
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i've also come across english who have a beef with france but never french who have a beef with england. the french ennui with english is more... "refinely" placed. it's all very comical

	19-05-2005 00:09									#55
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I love the french too. I find their strong belief in their own 'frenchness' to be a nice character, as with most other european countries. I like the differnces, it makes it interesting when visiting those countries and meeting people.
I like their women(those school exchanges were a lot of fun!) and their food mostly. I like the fact they dislike the English in the same kind of way the welsh, scots and irish do - even if they are related through the norman conquest

Viva la france! viva la difference!

But they do drive really badly(edit: the only car crash i've been involved in was as a passenger in a car being driven by a french guy) and are pretty cruel to animals.

Last edited by child of Thor on 19-05-2005 at 01:44

	19-05-2005 00:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 i've also come across english who have a beef with france but never french who have a beef with england. the french ennui with english is more... "refinely" placed. it's all very comical

well it's like that. it's like (some) english want to have a partner in their "superiority/hatred" for france. so they cajole you, like yeah... you know the french....

french on the other hand dont give a damn what you think (about the english)! and are generally more "high nosed" than them

	19-05-2005 01:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu In many respects France is kind of like the America of Europe.

I'd say Europe's Texas. They both manage to combine their nationalism with a greater nationalism, and they're both addicted to farm subsidies.

	19-05-2005 02:29									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I'd say Europe's Texas.

	19-05-2005 03:18									#59
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not only that, the french eat cheese for desert. whats with that? everyone else eats cheeseCAKE for desert.

and they drink their hot chocolate out of a cereal bowl.

	19-05-2005 03:23									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I'd say Europe's Texas. They both manage to combine their nationalism with a greater nationalism, and they're both addicted to farm subsidies.

Well, it is a widely known fact that Texas is, in fact, the America of America.