25-05-2005 09:17									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I'd surely be placed in a re-education camp, assuming I wasn't euthanized or something, so that I could be taught the glories of all that was to come.

Who cares? This isn't about you or me. It's about economic systems. If you want to talk about how communism and capitalism works for you then fine, but it won't be relevent. We are talking about how it works or would work worldwide.

	25-05-2005 15:41									#272
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Who cares? This isn't about you or me. It's about economic systems. If you want to talk about how communism and capitalism works for you then fine, but it won't be relevent. We are talking about how it works or would work worldwide.

Answer: It'll work world-wide the same way it works on me, the individual. Which is to say, poorly, if at all.

That was easy enough.

You seem entirely caught up with looking at the big picture, and if you're into that, fine and dandy, but the big picture is made up of lossa little pictures. In fact, the little pictures (how systems impact individuals) is more relevant than the big picture, because we all ARE, in fact, individuals.

To say otherwise, to reduce the individual to the point of irrelevancy is but another indicator of your mindset. Let's see now...perfect equality, everyone equal, everyone the same, individuals don't matter....yep...that really IS starting to sound a lot like the Borg.

You still don't get it, do you?

And I though Ag did for a while, but clearly not.

Nonetheless, you guys keep huffing and puffing, posting your angry little rants about how unfair the system is here, trying your best not to think about the fact that you're posting from computers, on the internet, both of which involve multiple channels of the great engine of capitalism.

That must gnaw at you most of all, yes?

I wonder, if the tables were turned...if communists were in power world wide, would they be as benevolent hosts to capitalist ideas as we are to yours?

Given your restrictive ideology....I doubt it.

I doubt it very much.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: And Mr. Fun....thank you.

Last edited by Velociryx on 25-05-2005 at 15:47

	25-05-2005 15:45									#273
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There's just as many people who aren't good at it or unlucky. You can't have winners without losers.

In futures markets...true.

In the economy in general...false.

This assumes that economics is a zero-sum game, which is so blatantly wrong that a first WEEK econ student can correct you. And you TAUGHT this stuff? Poor kids....

-=Vel=-

	25-05-2005 15:51									#274
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You can't be serious. No one wants to waste their time, because of the way he debates.

The way *I* debate. I see.

Truth telling is not allowed then? Being honest and not pulling punches is frowned upon. (Heavens no! Let us instead focus on the very WORST CASE possible for capitalism, while glossing over the attrocities of our own proposed ideology...that's what we want! That makes us look right.....uh huh)

Gee...my sincerest apologies (and forgive the sarcasm too!).

Actually, the more I contemplate it, that's pretty funny!

And by the way Kid, how's the search coming for those quotes of mine (you know, my capitalist equivalents to you're forced labor camps and stuff?) to REALLY put the nail in my coffin?

Not so good, huh?

Figured not, which was why you hadn't brough it up again.

Have a good morning.

-=Vel=-

	25-05-2005 18:30									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx You seem entirely caught up with looking at the big picture, and if you're into that, fine and dandy, but the big picture is made up of lossa little pictures. In fact, the little pictures (how systems impact individuals) is more relevant than the big picture, because we all ARE, in fact, individuals.

That's as idiotic as looking at one tree in the forest and assuming that all of the trees in the forest are just like that one.

	25-05-2005 18:34									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx In futures markets...true. In the economy in general...false.

The only way earings show up in stock is if there's a stock dividend. And even in that case the price of a share of stock does not increase except where there is an increased demand for the stock. Earnings only effect the price of stock by either increasing or decreasing the demand for the stock. They are distributed through dividends.

	25-05-2005 18:52									#277
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That's as idiotic as looking at one tree in the forest and assuming that all of the trees in the forest are just like that one.


But is that not your goal? Perfect equality (having read your posts repeatedly, I know this is what you want, both in condition and in outcome)....in order to attain it, the above statement MUST be true.

Further, while you cannot know every detail about the forest by examining the trees individually, there are a couple of points to remember:
a) There would be no forest if not for the trees.
b) as a collection of like objects, generally, what's bad for one is bad for all (ie, fire...it burns one tree, it burns many trees)

Your approach is bass-ackwards, in attempting to take a broad overview and apply it to all individuals that make up the group. The more sensible approch is to start with the individual and scale up to the group. This is true for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that human beings do not exist to "service" society as a whole....no matter how many times you repeat it to yourself, it still doesn't make it true.

-=Vel=-
EDIT: as to the second part...you answered your own question, so no need for me to comment.

	25-05-2005 18:59									#278
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What's the point in trying?

	25-05-2005 19:19									#279
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Vel: And Kid....not delusional...hell, you've said yourself on NUMEROUS occassions that you want to force people to work. You've mentioned forcibly relocating families, telling people WHERE they'll work, and on what project, and a host of other things.

Kid's Reply: This is a lot better, because you don't have such poor allocation of labor. People are trained for the job that will contribute the most to society and they will work where they can contribute the most to society. Everyone benefits. It's much better than the chaos of capitalism where no one really know where the **** to go and what the **** to do half the time.

Bolded for emphasis.
Obvious conclusion: Kid and I have differing priorities. Whereas my focus is on the individual first, his (and by the nature of communism, one must assume, communists in general) is on the group first. This is a fundamentally irreconcilable difference, and the chief reason these debates never go anywhere...

-=Vel=-

	25-05-2005 19:32									#280
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quote: The way *I* debate. I see.

Yes. It's called attacking a "straw man", and "failing to argue".

	25-05-2005 19:40									#281
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Oh...Ok Mr. "AI and IT".

You're right. It's obviously a straw man to poke fun at your beloved hero, Marx.

It's obviously a straw man to refute the way he defines capital, and thereby, refute all the thinking that stems from that leaky, century old definition that you've built your entire religion around.

It's wrong to point to the system that's working, and openly question why ANYONE would want to go back for another try at the system that's failed so spectacularly in the past, or to wonder aloud at how we, the People, could possibly be expected to trust the reds to "get it right this time" AFTER such vast failures.

Yeah...I see what you mean. There's really not a lot to argue about! Just a lot of excuses from one side and a lot of "the way things really work" from the other.

-=Vel=-

	25-05-2005 19:49									#282
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quote: It's obviously a straw man to refute the way he defines capita

There's a difference between refutation and attempted refutation and the sarcastic dismissal which you trade in.

And there's another straw man in your last post. Why do you assume that all communists believe in the Soviet way of doing things? There wasn't even unanimity on that point while the USSR was in it's prime. Moreover, you just ignore the fundamental Marxist claim that with technological changes come the possibility of radical economic changes.

But no, that would be to have a serious discussion about Marxism which you seem determined to avoid at all costs..

And if you believe the world economy works now given the abject misery of so many human beings, there is clearly something wrong with you.

	25-05-2005 20:29									#283
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Agathon, et al., may I conjecture that there might be an "invisible hand" working in favor of a communism-type society in the future. It lies in the idea that production is so great that everything is essentially free and most people really don't have to work to live well. Well, there are today factories in Japan and elsewhere that produce "widgets" by the thousands per days with only a handful workers whose only job is to man the robots and correct any problems that might arise. Imagine if almost all production of manufactured goods were similarly automated?

In such a society, I could see the government providing everyone a guarantee of a basic standard of living at very little relative cost. Work in "production" type jobs would not be necessary except for the robot repair designers and repair folks, and even these jobs could be part time. Most people could spend most of their time doing what they wanted instead of working.

Now this where we are headed under today's advanced capitalistic/welfare states. Nothing radical needs to be done to fundamentally alter their trajectories in order to achieve the projected nirvana.

Is there a fundamental problem with this future vision (achieved by the invisible hand and not by coercision) which is almost identical with the vision promoted by Marx, et al.?

	25-05-2005 20:40									#284
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quote:
It's obviously a straw man to refute the way he defines capita


There's a difference between refutation and attempted refutation and the sarcastic dismissal which you trade in.
Sorry...that's about all Marx is worth. I know you don't like to hear that, but he's old news. REALLY old news.

And there's another straw man in your last post. Why do you assume that all communists believe in the Soviet way of doing things? There wasn't even unanimity on that point while the USSR was in it's prime. Moreover, you just ignore the fundamental Marxist claim that with technological changes come the possibility of radical economic changes.
When and where in my last post did I mention the USSR? I'd love to see that quote! But yes, I did mention the track records of the comrades who came before you in general, and in looking at their track record...well, you already know what we find, don't you? Not much need to rehash that, especially since it makes you uncomfortable.
Suffice it to say, however, that their failings impact your chances today, because, quite frankly, having seen what your forefathers were capable of, we're categorically unimpressed. All we have are empty-sounding reassurances that "This time, we'll get it right." No specifics, glossing lots of the details over, just generalizations based on principles we already know don't work.
And you really wonder why we doubt?

But no, that would be to have a serious discussion about Marxism which you seem determined to avoid at all costs..
Primarily because there's not enough material to discuss seriously to make it worthwhile.

And if you believe the world economy works now given the abject misery of so many human beings, there is clearly something wrong with you.
And if you believe that the world's misery has cropped up recently enough to be attributed to Capitalism, then you need to open your eyes. Capitalism HAS caused its share. Growth can be painful. If you doubt that, ask any parent who has walked the halls late at night with a child with leg cramps. Just like with the parent up all night with the growing child, however, the solution is not to kill the child to fix the problem (leg cramps). It's as rediculous a solution in that instance as it is in the economic one we're talking about, and yet, it's the one you're supporting, and that makes it....somewhat difficult to have a serious discussion.

-=Vel=-

	25-05-2005 21:05									#285
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quote: Suffice it to say, however, that their failings impact your chances today, because, quite frankly, having seen what your forefathers were capable of, we're categorically unimpressed. All we have are empty-sounding reassurances that "This time, we'll get it right." No specifics, glossing lots of the details over, just generalizations based on principles we already know don't work. And you really wonder why we doubt?

Blah blah blah...

Same old crap again. Nice straw man....

	25-05-2005 21:14									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now this where we are headed under today's advanced capitalistic/welfare states. Nothing radical needs to be done to fundamentally alter their trajectories in order to achieve the projected nirvana.

We're headed in that direction. That doesn't mean we will ever get there. That being said there are particular problems on the way there in a capitalist system. For instance, how will we get from here to there while increasing profits, wages, and decreasing working hours.

quote: Is there a fundamental problem with this future vision (achieved by the invisible hand and not by coercision) which is almost identical with the vision promoted by Marx, et al.?

If the working class revolts in favor of a communist system I would hardly call that coercion.

	25-05-2005 21:27									#287
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Like I said...ultimately, not much to discuss. I'll continue to celebrate the power of the individual and the unprecedented power of the market, and you'll continue to wish it weren't so, crying "strawman" to avoid a fight, and crying foul when we bring up any of the historically based reasons we mistrust another try.

In other words, business as usual for team red...

-=Vel=-

PS to Kid....when the working class sees YOUR utopia, I highly doubt they'll run anywhere but AWAY from it, as fast and as hard as they can....

-v.

	25-05-2005 21:59									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Like I said...ultimately, not much to discuss. I'll continue to celebrate the power of the individual and the unprecedented power of the market, and you'll continue to wish it weren't so, crying "strawman" to avoid a fight, and crying foul when we bring up any of the historically based reasons we mistrust another try. In other words, business as usual for team red... -=Vel=- PS to Kid....when the working class sees YOUR utopia, I highly doubt they'll run anywhere but AWAY from it, as fast and as hard as they can.... -v.

The problem is that you aren't willing to discuss the present or the future, only how capitalism has worked for you in the past. That's irrelevent.

	25-05-2005 22:04									#289
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If both of you have nothing to discuss, could it please mean the end of these stupid threads?

	25-05-2005 22:19									#290
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If you mean that I'm unwilling to discuss your wildly fictional, post-apocalyptic version of the future, you're right. Since it bears so little resemblence to reality, and your plans and schemes bear a spooky resemblence to the failures of the past (even tho you don't like it when we point that out), no...I can't really see a lot of value in channeling the discussion in that direction.

Or perhaps you mean when you quote moth-eaten Marx, about the evils of Capitalism, describing economic conditions that existed in the 1880's and trying to overlay that onto a modern economy? Nahhh...I'll pass on that too, since what you're really after is finding the worst case scenario and then using it to justify your own attrocities and make them seem more palatable.

And if the discussion doesn't run along those lines, then all that's left is to cry foul and whine that we're just not LISTENING....yeah, I've participated in a few of these threads...

-=Vel=-

	25-05-2005 22:21									#291
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Did this pass for argument at your college Vel?

	25-05-2005 22:26									#292
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I was going to ask if he went to college.

	25-05-2005 22:47									#293
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Have any of the commies here ever used the term 'utopia' in a serious way, Vel?

	25-05-2005 22:58									#294
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Well if anyone else wants to discuss the actual theories of Marxism instead of Vel's exploits in capitalism here's a good website to base our dicsussion on.

Historical Materialism

This is what Historical Materialism is. Social existence determines man's consciousness, not the other way around.

quote: Historical Materialism is the application of Marxist science to historical development. The fundamental proposition of historical materialism can be summed up in a sentence: "it is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but, on the contrary, their social existence that determines their consciousness." (Marx, in the Preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy.)

Society goes through stages of development where production relationships change. People's consciousness is determined by these various production relationships.

quote: To each stage in the development of the productive forces corresponds a certain set of production relations. Production relation means the way people organise themselves to gain their daily bread. Production relations are thus the skeleton of every form of society. They provide the conditions of social existence that determine human consciousness.

This one is for Che. "Necessary labor" is that which the workers recieve compensation. It is mutually exclusive with "surplus labor," which is that which the workers are not compensated for. Every worker in the capitalist system does both "necessary" and "surplus" labor. It's not either or, and it's black and white.

quote: Thus the worker's daily work is divided into "necessary labour" and "surplus labour''. The worker performs "necessary labour'' during that part of the day spent in producing value which, when sold, will cover the cost of the wages. The worker performs "surplus labour'' during the remainder of the working day, producing value which, when sold, will cover the rent, interest and profit which goes to the capitalist class.

The working class is not like the peasant class. The peasant class does not have the cohesion that the working class does, and are not capable of revolution. Neither do the have a cohesive bond with the working class.

quote: The working class is unlike any other exploited class in history. We have seen how the three-sided class struggle within slave society necessarily led to the "common ruin of the contending classes". We have seen how the feudal peasantry were for hundreds of years incapable of formulating a coherent revolutionary alternative to the system that exploited them.

So feudal societies are not ready for communism. They must completely go through the stage of capitalism.

Marx predicted that capitalism will progress until a certain point has been reached, and that communism was not possible before that point. Communism can not occur before the process of capitalism is complete, just like the other stages of development could not occur before the stages before it were complete.

quote: /Nor is the modern working class left to vegetate at a modest but constant standard of living. Insecurity is a condition of their existence. Capitalism has produced many wonders inconceivable hitherto. It has also produced social disasters inconceivable under previous forms of society - crises taking the form of overproduction. In pre-capitalist societies, the subsistence of the toilers was only interrupted by famine - physical shortage of necessities. Primitive people's minds may well have been clogged with all sorts of superstition, but the spectacle of people starving, while sitting idly in front of the tools necessary to make the things they need, is a unique product of our society. Capitalism is social production. It is social in two ways. Firstly, it ties the whole world up into one economic unit through the world market, a worldwide division of labour. Everybody is dependent on everyone else for the things they need.

Again. Social existence determines man's consciousness, not the other way around.

	25-05-2005 22:59									#295
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Let me see if I understand correctly:
It was established on page one that the state (or the workers in communes, depending on your flavor of choice) would own all the major means of production once you take power.

Now...having established that up front, we rule out a lot of areas of discussion, because it's impolite to ask how this will be accomplished (osmosis, I guess, since a vote is out of the question and you get offended if we dare make the sugesstion of violence...which is rather amusing, especially coupled with your persistent complaints that you've "been under siege from day one" and that's why you've sometimes had to do things in non-optimal ways....not because your plan doesn't WORK, but just because you're under pressure....well, here's a newsflash...you call yourselves a REVOLUTION, get it? By definition, this means that you're for dismantling the established order. Further, for your "revolution" to exist must mean that in your minds at least, the war has already begun...so...where's the mystery here? You're at war with the established system, and you cry foul when they fight back, claiming that they're "attacking you"? Ummm...no. YOU are the revolutionaries, 'member, comrade? That means that you're attacking them (and losing). Oops...another thing we're not allowed to discuss...sorry.

So...since we immediately establish collective ownership of the major means of production, it would seem that there's not a lot to talk about, unless...oh! I know! Unless we look to what's left....generally to be found in the realm of individuals and their interaction in your glorious utopia.

But you don't wanna talk about that, so it's out.

Let's see...oh! I know! We could talk about how evil and corrupt capitalism has been through the ages....but let's NOT do a historical analysis of communism. That makes you reds uncomfy, and "isn't fair" to compare your kinder, gentler modus operandi with the hideous failures of your forefathers (note that this bears close relation to the strategy of claiming that the previous failures "weren't really communism at all" and then ascribe a cutsy term, usually by taking the leader of the failed experiment, and adding the letters "ism" to the end of it, thereby distancing yourself safely from the monsters in your own closet...which would work if we didn't see right through it.

We could talk about economic theory, except your Father, Son and Holy Ghost is a moth-eaten old man a century out of date, and rather than looking around and seeing how things really are, you quote corrupted definitions of words and savor his every page like it was fine wine. That's fine too if that's your choice, but still precious little to talk about since you refuse to hear anything but how awful capital is.

So what else is left?

The only conclusion I can reach, given the above is that you want a "debate" where we lay prostrate before you and apologize for the worst case scenario, join you in glossing over the atrocities and holes in your own system, and sing the praises of Marx.

Is that the debate and discourse you need?

-=Vel=-

Edit to Sandman: Inasmuch as communism itself is a utopian society where everyone magically has plenty and there is no scarcity...ummm...yes. Every time they bring it up.

	25-05-2005 23:18									#296
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quote: Edit to Sandman: Inasmuch as communism itself is a utopian society where everyone magically has plenty and there is no scarcity...ummm...yes. Every time they bring it up.

Well, I don't think that's what they're suggesting at all. Just a better society.

	25-05-2005 23:23									#297
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umm....ok. So as not to step on any toes, we can ban the use of the term "utopia" as well. Don't want our revolutionary brothers to be uncomfortable...

	25-05-2005 23:26									#298
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Why don't you stop making irrelevant points if you want a decent argument? Only Kid bothers with you, and this has happened in the last few com/cap threads you've participated in.

Here's a clue: it isn't because of your supposed superior debating skills.

	25-05-2005 23:35									#299
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I dunno, Ag...haven't seen a decent argument yet, from team red.

Here's a clue...since your side is framing the debate, if you don't like what the debators are saying, mayhaps it has more to do with the framework of the debate or the blinders you're wearing.

Of course, it's easy (and typical) to try and lay the blame elsewhere.

I understand.

Tell me....even when you manage to look past the failed experiments of your forefathers, don't you ever get a chill down your spin with the thought that maybe the glorious revolution is....oh...I dunno...just plain wrong?

I would.

Guess that means I'll never really be communist material.

*sigh*

-=Vel=-

	26-05-2005 00:08									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx umm....ok. So as not to step on any toes, we can ban the use of the term "utopia" as well. Don't want our revolutionary brothers to be uncomfortable...

Pretending that I'm demanding the 'banning' of the word utopia is just another silly smokescreen. I'm just drawing attention to a specific strawman, one of your favourites.

And you can't resist throwing in another strawman, can you? Many of the commies here have decided that violent revolution isn't the answer. One would never know this reading your posts.