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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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 Excellent post indeed, Dracon!
The only thing I can't quite figure out is if you believe all the things you said you believe....then why are you a member of the communist party?
While it is true that past performance is not a surefire indicator of future performance, history is about the best guide we have with regards to comparing and contrasting the merits of different economic systems, and WHEN we whip them out and compare them, we find one economic system has been a string of unmitigated disasters, while another has been responsible for an unprescedented rise in global standards of living (which is the stated goal, right? Improving the standard of living for the very worst off in a given society?)
Given then, that one system has been a collossal failure, and the other has been working to improve the very thing you seek to improve....I'm not sure I get your present association?
Especially liked your acknowledgement that people and situations and such ARE unequal, and nothing short of a genetics program and the co-option of all children by the state will change that. What I like about our present system is that everyone has opportunities to improve. Equal opportunities? Nope....but everyone HAS them. This has proved to be true both in times of economic plenty AND in times of economic crisis (which we've seen quite a few of). The opportunities may be different during the lean and good times, but that by no means makes them absent.
As for Kid....I really didn't expect a straight answer from you, but that's okay....none is needed.
If you cannot see that if you mean to FORCE your subjects to work in your work camps, EVEN IF you dress it up in sheep's clothing by offering them a small bone, the fact remains that they are not IN aformentioned work camps by choice. The absence of choice = coersion = slavery.
Dodge and wiggle all you want. Your words. Eat 'em.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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re: the market and price determination.
The facts are out there, and for the most part, readily available.
If someone goes into a flea market and pays more for a piece of stereo equipment than he shoulda, that's not my problem, nor my concern...once again, back to those individual choices. A quick trip online, or a talk to someone who knows the equipment, or a subscription to consumer reports (or a combination of all of the above), and a little dash of prudence is generally more than sufficient ammo to go head to head with producers/salesfolks.
If you, as a consumer don't take even the most basic of precautions, that's not something that the PRODUCER can be blamed for.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Mayhaps, Odin...mayhaps.
I think referring back to his own words is instructive as to the underlying thinking, and we never seem to have a shortage of material. Take this latest post, for example:
Work is a necessity of life, slavery is not. Exploitation is inherent to slavery. I advocate a system where the working class work for themselves.
So...since work is a "necessity of life" it CANNOT be slavery for the state to FORCE you to go to work in a work camp....after all, you own the means of production once you arrive!
Never mind the fact that you have no choice but to comply. Somehow that part of the equation just gets glossed over.
And to date, I've not yet met a capitalist who tried to force me to do anything. It's just a real life game of "the price is right." If the price ain't right, I don't bite. If it is...I do.
On the other hand, I've met a LOT of communists who seem to delight in telling me what I do and don't need, or how they plan to force me to work in one of their slave...erm sorry...labor camps....stuff like that.
There are rare, and very case specific instances where society acts as a more-or-less cohesive whole, but these are not the norm. In the vast majority of cases (day to day life and living), the order of the day is a collection of INDIVIDUALS making their own decisions about their wants and needs, and acting on them to the best of their ability.
And...it works.
-=Vel=-
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Dracon II
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Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 1970
time: 15:20
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quote:
The only thing I can't quite figure out is if you believe all the things you said you believe....then why are you a member of the communist party? |
I guess I'm a kneejerk communist.... inequality, privelige and capitalism in general puts me off.
I'm far more sympathetic to the traditional critical analysis of capitalism which has arisen out of the communist/marxist school of thought... so theoretically speaking I err on that side of things.
But when I collect my thoughts and think about the big picture, I come to conclusions that conflict with my emotive responses. I am a communist in that I welcome and yearn for the day when communism as it is dreamed of and as it should be is possible. But currently I don't see how it is...
I think markets are great for economic development & accumulation. The success of Europe over the much larger and more established asian and islamic civilizations is largely due to Europe's general historical predisposition to internal competition and a divided and decentralized political landscape that allowed for supranational markets to form that forced individual political units to facilitate rather than stifle commerce.
However, I think the market, with its dependence on sustained growth and expansion, is predisposed to short run profit at the expense of future prosperity, and that it can have a chaotic and corrupting effect on the cultures and civilizations it touches.
Moreover, it creates a cyclical trend of crisis/recovery that stresses the social fabric. And it is not an inherently rational system of distribution. Resources don't necessarily go where they are needed, they go where they fetch the best prices. Oil is a classic example of this. Much has been said of the role of China and India in creating the sharp spikes in the price of oil in recent months; however, if it weren't for the disproportionate consumption of the United States, this would clearly not be a problem. Clearly, the relative populations of China and the US does not correlate in their respective consumption of oil, and I can't help but think that the future development of other countries (which will require greater oil consumption) has been hampered by the disproportionate consumption of developed nations.
Of course, if Oil prices remain high, the market will raise incentive for R&D into alternative fuel sources, but it seems to me that the market is too much of a reactive force rather than a proactive one in this respect. I don't want to have to wait for a crisis in order for the market to correct it. Crises should be averted before the fact, and that requires planning and investment that is not necessarily cost-effective in the short run.
I have an instrumental view of markets. They are tools to be used where it is prudent to do so. They are a means, not an end... and they certainly should not be the ultimate determinant of social organization and production. There needs to be an external mechanism by which markets are rationally guided and regulated, and that has the right to determine, with recourse to democratic process, the scope and the limits to commodification.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Not always correct, Brother Ned.
Don't misunderstand me, I agree with the principle of what you are saying entirely, however, it IS true that there are some people whose needs are both great and immediate, but who lack any means at all to pay FOR their needs (witness the rampant starvation in various African nations, for example). I believe THESE are the very people the Communists seek to reach out to, and they are the SAME people that WE should always extend a hand to.
Now, if I know Kidicious, he'll be quick to trumpet loudly that the ONLY reason I would advocate feeding the starving in Africa is to keep them alive and marginalized so I, and others like me, can continue to shamelessly exploit them (yada yada yada, insert several references about capitalist pig-dogs here), but I say that is pure rubbish.
Further, I do not believe that Dracon's response will be even remotely similar to Kid's, because I sense a kindred spirit in him.
True, we have opted to approach the same fundamental problems from diametric positions, but that in no way detracts from the nobility of either of our intentions, nor the driving forces that motivate us.
I see the capitalist as an enabler. A creator of wealth and opportunity.
An artist, if you will, whose canvas is the world we live in.
Are there bad, dark, hideous artists among us?
Bet your arse there are.
Are there shining beacons of hope?
As ever, yes!
Capitalism CAN destroy. It CAN be used to amass huge, selfish fortunes for an elite few. It CAN be used to subjugate others....all of this is true.
It's also true that the very SAME electricity that brings light in our homes can be used to torture and kill.
Does this mean, then, that we should unbuild the power generating stations?
Of course not, and anyone who suggessted such a thing in our modern society would be laughed at quite heartily.
Likewise, to pursue a course of action that actively seeks to dismantle the greatest engine of wealth generation the planet has ever seen because there are problems at the margins is an equal folly.
No...I contend that the superior approach is to let the few bad seeds do their thing....on balance, it's a small price to pay for the wealth of opportunity the rest create (and the bad seeds too, although their personal greed somewhat blunts their efforts, it is true).
And in the process of creating opportunities and expanding the economic pie to greater and greater heights, we will continue to bouy an increasing number of people out of the poverty that many nations have known for generations, and into an era of plenty.
Equal....as in....perfectly, exactly equal in every respect?
Nope.
But valid (and quite wonderful) advancement nonetheless, with continuing opportunities to improve, and with each man and woman setting their OWN goals and making their OWN decisions, each will get there in their own way and time.
To the utterly destitute whose need is both immediate and dire, we owe it to them, as fellow human beings, to extend a hand in offered aid no matter what the political climate. Those who are fortunate enough to reap the largest benefits of the great engine that is capitalism are the ones in the best position to make a true DIFFERENCE. To really become heroes, in every sense of the word, and THAT is a noble calling indeed.
Of course, we're doing some of that NOW, but we could be doing more, always.
And then there's the thonry problem of tin-pot dictators who confiscate what we DO send, in order to feed their army, or, rather than give it to their own starving masses, leave it to rot in port, but those are issues that diverge a bit too far afield for the present thread.....
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Hey, I agree with you for the most part....Sam Kennison said it best, "the best thing we could send to the people in those $hithole nations of the world is not to send them food, but LUGGAGE!"
And the tin-pot dictators of the world are the root cause of just silly amounts of starvation. Bad planning accounts for some...short-sightedness for some...and natural disaster for a goodish chunk.
However...the root causes are relatively unimportant when it comes to life and death situations such as these, there at the margins of the system, where the only consideration must be delivering needed supplies to ensure the continued survival of these unfortunate fellow human beings. Not for political favors down the line...not in exchange for this or that demand, but simply because they deserve to BE.
With regards to the schism you mentioned....the only answer is "as best we can." For if we curtail the freedoms of the press, we start down a path that can only have one end point, and makes us no better than the abominations we fight against.
-=Vel=-
PS to Dracon: With regards to your comments on the market providing "reactive" responses to looming crisis rather than a proactive stance...yes and no.
On the one hand, the simple market mechanism is exactly as you describe it, however, already, and even now, the smart money IS currently pouring money into developing alternatives.
Cars powered on nothing but compressed air are currently being built in Spain. GM has announced an ambitious plan to bring us mass-produced Hydrogen cells by 2020, the price of solar and wind generation have dropped manifold, thanks to wide-spread acceptance and increasing (though still miniscule, compared to what it could be) use. So...I cannot say that I agree with your assessment that capitalists only react, rather than pro-act...seems there's an awful lot of money being poured into alternative fuels, and we're not in gas "crunch time" yet...
-v.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Kid...that was probably the worst topic you could have brought up, but since you did, I'll take a great deal of pleasure in ripping that argument out of your hands and beating you over the head with it.
Yes. Christina and I buy distressed houses and fix them up to rent out and resell them. Before my father died, we were the dream team, because he was an *outstanding* carpenter.
Our projects are solid successes because we invest so much of ourselves into them. In short, we WORK for our money, much as you'd love to imagine us sitting around sipping mint julips and raking in rent checks. If you doubt it, I'd be willing to bet that you've not gotten out in the hundred-plus degree weather and gotten your hands dirty very often, or worked them til the blisters started bleeding.
We are compensated for our WORK of taking distressed properties and doing the repairs that folks on the margins could not afford to do. We rent them out for a time and sell them when it's to our advantage to do so. Ultimately, the plan is to stop at some point and settle in on ~10 rental properties that we'll keep for a longer-term.
Since we started, we've helped two people realize the dream of home ownership, and are selling another property ~August to help pay for the upcoming wedding (selling to my Aunt, who wants to continue to use it as a rental).
We started doing this when we first started dating, interrupted by a couple of fairly major obstacles, including dad's death and my hospitalization, but we've kept at it, with Christina doing a LOT of the work while I was down, and we plan on continuing.
So break it down for me....tell me how and where our work is so evil and wrong? Step me through your blinders-on thinking....but I've asked you to do that once before, haven't I? And you backed away from it then. Will you again?
Also, before you roll your eyes elaborately and say that two is such an insignificant number, I would be curious to know....in all your huffing and puffing, how many people have YOU helped so far?
I suspect that resounding silence or a typical one-line response will be about all you can muster, but we shall see.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Agathon: because it creates capital?
Ahhh...so then, because you and a relatively few others live with the haunting fear that someone, somewhere might use the power of electricity to kill, rather than to enable the computer that you're using to type and publish the message above to the 'net, the obvious solution is to unbuild the power plants...rip them down and come up with a method of power generation that can only be used for good...is that about right?
Like electricity, capital can be used for good or ill. Generating quantities (even vast quantities) is not a bad thing, and in fact, necessary for modern society to continue to function, and further, while you cannot accurately predict every subtle shift in a beach by looking at a single grain of sand, you can learn quite a lot by focusing on the individual elements that make up that beach. Further still, society is not the borg collective, but a teeming mass of *individuals* and if you want to truly study society, THAT is where the path begins....with the individual.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:20
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Again, I ask the question, Kid...when the dust settles, how many people have YOU helped with all the tripe you spew?
Granted, two isn't a big number, but then again, I'm just getting started.
You see...the difference is that I practice what I preach. Are you? If so...by all means, regale us with your stories of communist successes! I'm sure we'll all be anxious to hear!
As for my "stories" improving....this has all been carefully planned from the start, and now, those careful plans are bearing fruit. That's generally what happens when you combine persistence with a solid plan. I'd heartily recommend it!
And in case you want to replicate it, I will post the entire plan here this evening after dinner (weekly ritual of going to get my grandmother and bringing her to my place for dinner....another indication of my capitalist pig-dogness, no doubt!)
But I must say, I'm pleasantly surprised...your answer was longer than half a dozen words, and I shall address it fully after dinner. 
-=Vel=-
(just wanted to give you something to look forward to!)
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23-05-2005 01:39
I'm not letting some "watcher society" control every aspect of my life.
I see you've thought about this since the last time we went over it. Now you are breaking your back to help the poor homeless. What a bunch of crap. Keep telling stories Vel. They keep getting better. Honestly, you are affecting some people here. More than I thought you would.
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