25-05-2005 06:09									#331
	Got spare money?

quote: Why the hell would they therefore think the title was anything else?

Because the title given by the movie itself, presented in the exact same way as the titles for Empire and Jedi, is A New Hope?

quote: Why would I assume the title of the movie I'd just seen was something different than what was on the marquis/video box/in the newspaper/etc.?

I do it all the time. For example, I know that "Hidalgo" is the real name of the movie, even if the box at my video store says "Ocean of Fire"...

	25-05-2005 06:16									#332
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Why the hell would they therefore think the title was anything else? Because the title given by the movie itself, presented in the exact same way as the titles for Empire and Jedi, is A New Hope?

It's like a circle of stupidity.

Going into ESB or RotJ, they would have seen posters, advertisments and commercials all calling them such. They would have those titles on their ticket stubs. But for the first film? Just "Star Wars" on everything. The logical conclusion is that, just as the titles of ESB and RotJ are what was advertised, so is Star Wars. Officially, "A New Hope" was only a subtitle of Star Wars for 20 years.

quote: I do it all the time. For example, I know that "Hidalgo" is the real name of the movie, even if the box at my video store says "Ocean of Fire"...

Cute, but foreign retitlings don't count.

	25-05-2005 06:18									#333
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Because the title given by the movie itself, presented in the exact same way as the titles for Empire and Jedi, is A New Hope?

You mean on the box cover? And in the movie listing books? And on the theater marquee? And on the VHS/DVD boxes? And on the Timothy Zahn novelizations? And on the merchandising? And on the watch I got for Christmas when I was 11?

Sorry, but they all referred to Star Wars. Not A New Hope but Star Wars.

	25-05-2005 06:22									#334
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How pervasive is branding and advertising for a film that was released years, even decades ago? I'm sorry, but most people who didn't see Episode 4 in its initial run are going to base what they refer to the movie as on viewings of the movie itself, not non-existant marketing for a movie that had ended its theater run years before. I'm not taking a side in this, though. Both sides are talking out their ass, spewing BAMs like "most people think this" or "no, the majority calls them this!" Nobody has any proof. I'm just pointing out that it is possible that some people would refer to Episode 4 as "A New Hope" based on viewings of the movie...

Drake, I offered US Copyright Office cites to back my claim. Boris offered images of SW products. It's Imran who's offering BAMs.

	25-05-2005 06:27									#335
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Because the title given by the movie itself, presented in the exact same way as the titles for Empire and Jedi, is A New Hope? You mean on the box cover? And in the movie listing books? And on the theater marquee? And on the VHS/DVD boxes? And on the Timothy Zahn novelizations? And on the merchandising? And on the watch I got for Christmas when I was 11? Sorry, but they all referred to Star Wars. Not A New Hope but Star Wars.

Timothy Zahn just wrote SW novels, not the novelizations

	25-05-2005 06:32									#336
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Eh, so what?

Attached is a picture of the first SW VHS release in 1982. Note the lack of the "EP 4, ANH" title that y'all are insisting these films were referred as, post-1981.

This link is to a page that details the history of the various releases of SW to VHS, Laserdisc and DVD, including some foreign releases. Note that the "Episode 4, A New Hope" subtitle is absent on every cover until 2000. http://www.davisdvd.com/misc/ep4.htm

So, if they weren't selling the movie as either "Episode 4" or "A New Hope" before 2000, then how in Gods name were the films "come to be known" by those titles before then?

Attachment: sw original vhs release.jpg
This has been downloaded 70 time(s).

	25-05-2005 06:36									#337
	Inflate your Upload Space

JohnT is clearly right.

	25-05-2005 06:39									#338
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I oughtta sig that, you know.

	25-05-2005 06:44									#339
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The results are in and the people have spoken!

Imran doesn't know what people call "The Godfather" either.

14 - "The Godfather"
5 - "Godfather 1"
7 - "What Banana calls it 'Godfather 1'? Imran?"

PWNED by a near 3:1 margin.

	25-05-2005 07:21									#340
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I just got back from seeing the movie for a second time. The overall impression I have of the film is that it is a beautiful work of art. The visuals were the best yet of any film. The music was superb.

As to the story, I must admit it was interesting throughout and moving at the end. The dark mood of the film combined with its gorgeous beauty ranks this film as the best in the series, better than Empire Strikes Back, my previous favorite.

When this comes out on DVD, I am going to buy it rather than rent it. That will be a first for me.

Come Oscar time, I would not be surprised if this film takes home a number of awards, including best score. It should be nominated for best film as well, and this one might actually win one for the single greatest series in film history.

George Lucas, you have contributed greatly to the world. Bravo!

	25-05-2005 07:28									#341
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Drake, I offered US Copyright Office cites to back my claim. Boris offered images of SW products. It's Imran who's offering BAMs.

Neither of which are particulary relevant in determining what normal people call Episode 4.

	25-05-2005 08:01									#342
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Neither of which are particulary relevant in determining what normal people call Episode 4.

I don't see why not. JohnT's citation shows that the movie's title was only "Star Wars" until 1997. So there would be no reason for anyone to think anything else prior. And the merchandising and branding examples I've cited show that it was sold to the public simply as "Star Wars" until 2000. On top of that, I've shown that movie sites and guides still refer to the movie just as "Star Wars."

So I fail to see any logic behind a claim that most people would or might assume the title of the original movie was "Episode 4" or "A New Hope" based on a 5 second bit of moving text at the very beginning of the movie that comes after we see a much bigger "STAR WARS" blaze across the screen. Especially when their movie ticket/VHS box only says "Star Wars."

	25-05-2005 08:03									#343
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm not sure who is arguing for what, but I got the impression it had to do with this bit

quote: "Episode IV: A New Hope" did not appear in the film during its opening run, but was added during the movie's re-release to ensure consistency with The Empire Strikes Back.

	25-05-2005 08:04									#344
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Actually, no Verto. We're well beyond arguing about that.

	25-05-2005 08:06									#345
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Oh, please forgive. After about the second page of the mindless argument, I skipped to the end.

Are we discussing how people refer to the movies? If so, everyone I knows classifies them as:

Star Wars
Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Phantom Menace or SW:Episode I
AotC or Episode II
No clue about RotS, although SW: Ep III has been mentioned several times.

	25-05-2005 08:24									#346
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker eh, JohnT has provided actual evidence... ergo they aren't bald assertions.

They are arguing about what most people think the first movie released is called. Without a poll any number of boxes and copyrights or links to the movie crawls are not going to answer this question. The evidence is useless for 'pwning' someone since it can't directly measure or even strongly suggest what most people call that movie. We would need a poll to come even close to determining that. So his 'evidence' changes nothing 'pwnage' has not occured.


In fact none of his evidence actually is in anyway inconsistent with Imrans claims and likewise offers by Imran to link to the movie crawls do not constitute evidence of 'most peoples' perceptions. We have no evidence, just people proving facts that both sides already agreed on.

	25-05-2005 08:25									#347
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok, saw the flick, thought it was an 8. Thought Anniken went from trying to do the right thing to slicing and dicing the younglings a bit too fast...

	25-05-2005 08:26									#348
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo They are arguing about what most people thing the first movie released is called. Without a poll any number of boxes and copyrights or links to the movie cralws are not going to answer this question. The evidence is useless for 'pwning' someone since it can't directly measure or even strongly suggest what most people call that movie. We would need a poll to come even close to determining that. So his 'evidence' changes nothing 'pwnage' has not occured. In fact none of his evidence actually is in anyway inconsistent with Imrans claims and likewise offers by Imran to link to the movie crawls likewise do not constitute evidence of 'most peoples' perceptions. We have no evidence just people proving facts that both sides already agreed on.

Exactly.

	25-05-2005 08:33									#349
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How the hell did this argument start?

from this post

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Another bit of commentary: The introduction of "Episode" numbers, and the renaming of certain films, is as much an insult to the intelligence of the audience as is the character of Jar-Jar. The fact that these two things occurred during the same movie is even more fitting.

for the record I completely disagree with that post, even though I acknowledge that 'Star Wars' was the proper name of the first film for a number of years and should still be accptable today.

Episode numbers were a part of the star wars universe the moment they appeared in the crawl on the big screen. It would be like someone taking serious offense at someone publishing "the Hobbit" as "There and back again a Hobbit's holiday" even though the latter title was actually written into the story itself by the original author decades ago.

Episode numbers were originally part of the atmosphere of the first movie and Lucas made them part of the real world label on the packaging. Big deal.

	25-05-2005 08:40									#350
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident star wars is the title of the movie released in 1977. End of story. End of discussion.

unfortunately they are not debating that. they are arguing endlessly in circles about what 'most people' call that movie and secondarily JohnT is expressing his contempt for anybody calling the first movie released anything other than "Star Wars".

	25-05-2005 08:41									#351
	Put an end to popups!

based upon this thread, the majority of posters agree with John T. That is the closest thing to a poll available here.

	25-05-2005 08:41									#352
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A few points, but the important part is at the end:

quote: No one said that, but MOST OFTEN, that's what happens, as I pointed out.

Yet there are plenty of examples of series that don't. It's not cut and dried that a series name is the name of a movie. And of course in other mediums (like books) a great deal of the time the series name may be totally different from the book names.

quote: All the article shows is that a news outlet referred to the current movie as "Star Wars," which is just a shortening of "Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith." for space sake in their headline. The full title is mentioned in the actual article: "'Star Wars: Episode III -- Revenge of the Sith' sold an estimated $108.5 million worth of tickets..."

Why not call it "Sith"? People bouncing around in the Entertainment section of CNN will know that is part of the movie's name. Star Wars has become known to most as the series name, with any references to the first movie to be deliniated futher (by whatever means).

quote: Nope, Imran. Anyone who had seen ESB would know that's where Yoda came from, fan or not.

I've seen all the Matrix movies, but I'm not sure if the Merovingian appeared first in the 2nd or 3rd movie. Just because people have seen a series of movies doesn't mean they can tell in which movie something happened. Fans would know, obviously.

quote: Neither che nor Kaak supported your actual argument, you just latched on to them in your desperate grab for someone to support your silly ideas.

Um... no. They made statements/arguments that I agreed with. Rather than repost the argument, I refered to them.

quote: 1) I'm not relying on individual posters, I'm relying on a sampling of people posting here to show that most people think of the movie as "Star Wars." And these are people who are, by and large, actual fans. This is directly relevant to the proposition that a majority of people think of the first movie as "Star Wars." What you have cited is not. 2) The link I provided was a lengthy article on the Star Wars ouvre, and in it there is a quote that is directly related to this stupid-ass debate. This is clearly someone with in-depth knowledge of the films who has written it. This has a bit more authority than buddies on a forum agreeing with you.

So you are saying that most people out there, a majority of which are non fans say X, but then use testimony of the fans to make your case, when you say their usage is not the issue? Wha?

quote: You even linked to an Amazon page showing a release of the original trilogy from 2000 on VHS with the rebranding in effect.

My mistake then. It was first done in 2000. Still a decent cry from 1997, when the Special Edition movie was released. And if Lucas thought that people wouldn't know what "A New Hope" would be if on the cover, just simply put "Star Wars" on there as well. Why would that be difficult, and it would be consistent with the rebranding.

quote: Rebranding is when a COMPANY takes a product and revamps it in some way and reintroduces it to the public in order to change public perceptions about said product. It's as simple as changing a logo to having a huge overhaul of a corporate image. The consumers don't "rebrand," the companies do.

So if people call a movie something for 20 years (or 15 or 10 years), a company making a minor change to the name (like adding an episode number and episode title to the box) will make people suddenly stop calling it what they have for X years? Why?

----

Important Part:

This is absolutely going no where. You are not swaying me and I'm not swaying you and neither of us will (unless Geronimo's poll gets done, and I don't see that happening). And I don't have the time to continue this debate, especially with my upcoming schedule. So, I'll just conceed and you can do what you want.

If Drake wants to continue arguing on the a similar pathway to mine, then he's free to do so as well (though I will add that he's 100% correct about the relevancy of the Copyright info), but I don't have the time to join in anymore. You can respond to the above, but I likely won't be reading it.

In fact, I should probably be studying torts (and getting ready for bed) instead of posting this in the first place.

	25-05-2005 08:46									#353
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: If Drake wants to continue arguing on the a similar pathway to mine

Oh, hell no...

	25-05-2005 09:18									#354
	Suffering from ads?

well, it turns out that you're all wrong

The real name of the 1st movie was "Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker"

Attachment: sw.jpg
This has been downloaded 63 time(s).

	25-05-2005 16:18									#355
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: So I fail to see any logic behind a claim that most people would or might assume the title of the original movie was "Episode 4" or "A New Hope" based on a 5 second bit of moving text at the very beginning of the movie that comes after we see a much bigger "STAR WARS" blaze across the screen.

Especially when said crawl only appeared on the movie after the first and second runs, after it had earned more than $193,000,000 at the box office, after 65,000,000 tickets were sold, after it was played out as a theater attraction.

Boris, in all honesty, the opposing side has to argue in the face of so much evidence that I fear that we have been suckered into possibly the biggest troll in ACS history.

... nawwwwwwww.

	25-05-2005 16:19									#356
	Support Apolyton

quote: Without a poll any number of boxes and copyrights or links to the movie crawls are not going to answer this question. The evidence is useless for 'pwning' someone since it can't directly measure or even strongly suggest what most people call that movie. We would need a poll to come even close to determining that. So his 'evidence' changes nothing 'pwnage' has not occured.

Read above posts regarding 65,000,000 tickets sold before said "Ep 4, ANH" crawl was added. Read above posts citing VHS, Laserdisc, and DVD release titles and dates. Read above posts citing US Copyright Office documents.

	25-05-2005 16:24									#357
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo unfortunately they are not debating that. they are arguing endlessly in circles about what 'most people' call that movie and secondarily JohnT is expressing his contempt for anybody calling the first movie released anything other than "Star Wars".

Actually, my contempt is directed towards George Lucas who, in addition to being a craptacular director, is a revisionist of the worst order, a man whose constantly shifting vision of what his creation ought to be has sparked this debate and ruined the continuity of his films.

	25-05-2005 16:27									#358
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Episode numbers were originally part of the atmosphere of the first movie and Lucas made them part of the real world label on the packaging. Big deal.

No they weren't. The episode numbers didn't appear until April 1981, after the film went through its first and second runs.

	25-05-2005 17:04									#359
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by centrifuge well, it turns out that you're all wrong The real name of the 1st movie was "Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker"

I had that book!

My 5th-grade teacher stole it from me because I kept on reading it in class, the beyatch.

	25-05-2005 19:38									#360
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Episode numbers were originally part of the atmosphere of the first movie and Lucas made them part of the real world label on the packaging. Big deal. No they weren't. The episode numbers didn't appear until April 1981, after the film went through its first and second runs.

Lol, for 24 out of 28 years it was there. The first run showing was crippled enough by by the tiny number of participating theaters that the second run a year later practically constitutes the same run. I admit when I saw star wars in 1978 I was young enough that I barely remember it whereas my 1981 recollection is substantially clearer, but let's not pretend that 1977-1980 constitutes some immense chunk of the public star wars experience. I daresay most people who enjoyed the 1977/78 release went to and saw and experienced the 1981 release as well.


To use "the Hobbit" analogy again, nobody complains about or disputes the canonical status of the textual and plot revisions Tolkien made to the text of the Hobbit for the 1954 publication of The Lord of the Rings even though The Hobbit had been in it's original form since 1937. Which version of the Hobbit do you suppose 'most people' think of as the 'real' version?