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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
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quote:
I'm still waiting to hear how Kaak's thread (which had the participation of, oh, six people or so when you cited it) is in any way relevant to this argument. |
As an example of when distinguishing between the movies, Episode 4 and/or A New Hope is used often. I don't understand why Kaak's thread is to be cast aside when you cite a flunky film critic and JohnT's favorite site, wikipedia (ask him what he thinks of the validity on that site).
Btw, look at the thread again, more than 6 people (a good deal more) and quite a few who refered to the original movie as "ANH".
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The issue that I clearly stated from the outset is that most people refer to the original film as "Star Wars." |
Um... no, I'll quote your original post (Page THREE on my forums).
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Originally posted by Boris on page 3
nobody except a small contigent of geeks refers to the first film as either "episode 4" or "a new hope" The overwhelming majority of people think of the first film as "Star Wars," period. |
You said that the overwhelming majority think of the first film as ONLY Star Wars and have no idea what is said when they hear Episode 4.
As you said later on that page:
quote:
later by Boris
Most people don't have a clue as to the episode numbers |
The issue is that you think most people have no clue about the episode numbers and when you try to distinguish among the movies and use "Episode 4" or "A New Hope" they won't have any idea what you are talking about. As you said, they know it as "Star Wars", PERIOD. You also said that NOBODY thought of Star Wars as Episode 4 (5/20, 10:27 AM). I think che's post above yours shows the fallacy of that... after ESB many people realized that SW was Episode 4.
I think the goal post moving is yours.
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How many times to we have to go over that this isn't about what the uberfans think, it's about the population at large. |
You think non-fans know the difference between the Star Wars series and the Star Wars movie (weren't you saying who wouldn't know Yoda or Battle of Hoth was in ESB?)? It's important to compare fans and non-fans. Non-fans think of the WHOLE THING as Star Wars. RotS was seen by non-fans as another Star Wars movie. They have no clue what all the movie names are and what they may or may not have encompased. They just know there are a bunch of movies called Star Wars.
When CNN announced that RotS broke the 1 day record, they said "Star Wars breaks record". Non-fans have no idea about names, episode numbers, or subtitles.
After all, look at the IMDB listings. All the movies have "Star Wars" listed on them. The first is just SW, because there was nothing else in the original crawl.
Most people refers to people who know about the films and watch them (after all, your comment that anyone knows Yoda was in ESB only applies to fans). So, the casual fan or the uberfan. The non-fan doesn't know anything except the whole series is called Star Wars.
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as of ESB we all knew Star Wars was "episode 4." |
Quite right. When people saw ESB they knew that Star Wars had to be Episode 4, and since the series is known as "Star Wars" gave it a way to distinguish it among the other movies.
Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 23-05-2005 at 08:59
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Brundlefly
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United States
Nov 2001
time: 00:21
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dp
Last edited by Brundlefly on 23-05-2005 at 18:46
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
You think non-fans know the difference between the Star Wars series and the Star Wars movie (weren't you saying who wouldn't know Yoda or Battle of Hoth was in ESB?)? It's important to compare fans and non-fans. Non-fans think of the WHOLE THING as Star Wars. RotS was seen by non-fans as another Star Wars movie. They have no clue what all the movie names are and what they may or may not have encompased. They just know there are a bunch of movies called Star Wars.
When CNN announced that RotS broke the 1 day record, they said "Star Wars breaks record". Non-fans have no idea about names, episode numbers, or subtitles.
After all, look at the IMDB listings. All the movies have "Star Wars" listed on them. The first is just SW, because there was nothing else in the original crawl.
Most people refers to people who know about the films and watch them (after all, your comment that anyone knows Yoda was in ESB only applies to fans). So, the casual fan or the uberfan. The non-fan doesn't know anything except the whole series is called Star Wars. |
Thank you. You've just ceded to me exactly the same point I've been making all along: MOST people (which INCLUDES non-fans) do not have a clear concept as to the episode numbering or subtitle ANH for the 1977 film. I have never deviated from this being my main point.
Your goal-post moving, however, is your sudden and inexplicable exclusion of non-fans from the equation when that's not the issue, when you clearly hadn't before:
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As [sic] the man on the street what they think of Episode IV of Star Wars. They'll know what you are talking about. |
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Most people know this Boris. People who had no idea what Episode 4 of Star Wars was, I'd be concerned that they had been living in a cave since the 70s. |
That clearly is NOT excluding non-fans.
Your other goal post moving is the switching from claiming EVERYONE used the episode number/ANH to refer to the 1977 film to everyone using that OR "the first movie" or "the original movie":
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One of reasons to change it was that people were already referring to it as [b]Episode 4, if not "A New Hope". |
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Incorrect... the majority refer to the movies as Episode 4 or "The first movie". |
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What about 'Episode 4' or 'The first Star Wars movie'? |
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People know what "Episode IV of Star Wars" is. Or they'll call it "The first Star Wars movie".
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Now, I never argued that people didn't use "the first movie" to refer to the 1977 film, yet you then tried to claim that this was indeed an issue, for some inexplicable reason, since common sense dictates that if some clarification is needed, people will do more than just repeat "Star Wars!" over and over. The way most people do this is indeed to say "the first/original movie." Saying that requires nowhere near the immersion into the SW universe that referring to Episode # or "ANH" does.
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Non-fans think of the WHOLE THING as Star Wars. |
Whoop-de-do. So does everyone else. But even most non-fans know that the first movie ever released was called "Star Wars," just as most everyone knows that the "Godfather" is both trilogy and movie. This is utterly irrelevant to the argument.
quote:
I don't understand why Kaak's thread is to be cast aside when you cite a flunky film critic and JohnT's favorite site, wikipedia (ask him what he thinks of the validity on that site).
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Because Kaak's thread has nothing to do with what most people call the movies. How many times can this be said? Kaak, obviously being a fan, has created a thread about rating all the movies. Why would an issue of his nomenclature come up? How does this in anyway show what most people use to designate the movies? It doesn't, plain and simple.
But I find it infinitely amusing that you dismiss what I've linked, when you've not linked to anything supporting your claims whatsoever. Again, all you've offered is "no it isn't!" as an argument (and then changed your argument along the way to boot).
And I could care less what JohnT thinks of wikipedia, since I've seen you use it time and again as a citation, so obviously you don't have a problem with it. At any rate, the article's origin is not wikipedia anyway, you can find it on several other sites. You're just trying to weasel out of a citation that states exactly what I've been saying all along when you have utterly no citations that back up your [original] claim.
So I reiterate--until you actually back up your bald-ass assertions with some evidence for your claims--as well as stop trying to weasel out of what it is you're saying as I've demonstrated you've done--then this argument will go nowhere. 
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
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quote:
MOST people (which INCLUDES non-fans) do not have a clear concept as to the episode numbering or subtitle ANH for the 1977 film. |
Non-Fans do not have a clear concept as to whether there was even one film named Star Wars! They know the series name, but they don't know the name of the individual movies! You said, most people (which includes non-fans in your parenthetical) think of the first movie of Star Wars, period. Non-fans have no clue!
quote:
Your other goal post moving is the switching from claiming EVERYONE used the episode number/ANH to refer to the 1977 film to everyone using that OR "the first movie" or "the original movie": |
 I refered to Episode number, ANH, and "the first movie" within 40 minutes at the beginning of the argument! That was back 3 days ago, well before the argument got going into these Berzerker-like posts.
It seems funny that you were arguing for 3-4 days and just now said I changed my argument, when that was something I brought up in the 1st hour of this long debate.
quote:
I never argued that people didn't use "the first movie" to refer to the 1977 film |
You've stated that people knew the movies as "Star Wars", "Empire Strikes Back", and "Return of the Jedi" and that alone and there was no confusion as between "Star Wars" the movie and the series. You went on to say that "Hitchhiker's Guide" was the name of a book and the series and you find no confusion there, that when you name "Hitchhiker's Guide", you conclude that most people know that to be the book.
Then WHY do you need to say "the first movie"? If everyone knows the movie as "Star Wars" and there is no confusion... why is clarification needed?
This is something I referenced in my first post response to your claim.
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But even most non-fans know that the first movie ever released was called "Star Wars," just as most everyone knows that the "Godfather" is both trilogy and movie. |
Um... no. People call the Godfather by number to distinguish the movies. They don't say "Godfather" to refer to the first one. They call it "Godfather I". Just because the series is named something doesn't mean that people think the first movie is named the same thing. People don't think the first Indiana Jones movie is called "Indiana Jones".
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Because Kaak's thread has nothing to do with what most people call the movies. |
Is Kaak different from most people? Why, because he is a 'fan', however casual? Non-fans wouldn't make a poll like that because they don't know how many movies have come out, nor what they are all called.
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when you've not linked to anything supporting your claims whatsoever |
I could link you to the crawls, if you want. As che said, after Episode 5, people knew that the first movie was Episode 4. When discussing the movies, calling it episode 4 to distinguish is common sense.
And how have you proven that 'most people' know the movie as Star Wars, period? Because websites list the official title? Because some people on the web make that claim? Hardly 'proof' at all.
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then changed your argument along the way to boot |
Says the man who stated people know it as Star Wars, period, then there is no confusion at all with Star Wars the entire series, and THEN says he didn't argue that people didn't use the "first movie" to refer to the original film.
Using another term to distinguish indicates that confusion does arise!
Btw, this is something I brought up in the original response to you back at the beginning.
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And I could care less what JohnT thinks of wikipedia, since I've seen you use it time and again as a citation, so obviously you don't have a problem with it. |
Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Wikipedia is written by whomever. It could be MrFun writing the Star Wars entry, we have no clue. It isn't anyone who has been given a position of authority on this.
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23-05-2005 04:29
There was a person who was totally out of his element.
Any hack with a digicam and a few friends could do that...
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