20-05-2005 08:50									#61
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I also found the end to be kind of dumb. Obiwan and Yoda are the last two jedi but they don't try to teach anyone and instead just decide to sit and wait out the next 20 years until A New Hope happens. You figure trying to revive the jedi and spread their teachings would be a concern to them.

It's also kind of wierd how so many people from the first trilogy knew each other in RotS but never talked about it. Why didn't R2-D2 use his little rocket boosters or his head mounted laser gun in the other movies?

	20-05-2005 08:53									#62
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quote: Obiwan and Yoda are the last two jedi but they don't try to teach anyone and instead just decide to sit and wait out the next 20 years until A New Hope happens. You figure trying to revive the jedi and spread their teachings would be a concern to them.

I guess that's a failing of the original work. However, an explination is that neither of them were powerful enough to take on Palpatine. If they tried to revive the Jedi and spread their teachings, they'd be found out by Palpy and killed.

Perhaps they realized Luke and Leia would be the 'new hope', but why didn't they train them at an earlier age? Then again, it's a failing of "Star Wars". The end of RotS just tries to put the pieces in place.

	20-05-2005 09:09									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Drake Tungsten: I'm not taking your crap on this. Wow, I never expected that from you. BTW, the thread title in no way implies that spoilers would be out in the open. Spoiler boxes are there so you can provided reviews and commentary (the stated purpose of this thread) without exposing readers to unwanted information.

The very fact that the thread is about this specific movie means that spoiler boxes are unnecessary. What did you expect to find upon opening it - reviews and commentary about another movie?

	20-05-2005 09:13									#64
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I expected to find reviews and commentary about Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. Neither reviews nor commentary contain spoilers by their very nature. I've read plenty of reviews that don't have any spoilers or warn you if they do. Same with commentary.

Oh, and right back at you...

edit: And I was never that mad about the spoiler to begin with. It sucks that I know how Mace bites it now, but accidents happen. The fact that I was accused of spewing crap for pointing out the lack of a spoiler warning isn't sitting too well with me however, as is the insinuation that I'm stupid for thinking that "reviews and commentary" does not necessarily equal "spoiler-filled discussion"...

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 20-05-2005 at 09:22

	20-05-2005 09:35									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I also found the end to be kind of dumb. Obiwan and Yoda are the last two jedi but they don't try to teach anyone and instead just decide to sit and wait out the next 20 years until A New Hope happens. You figure trying to revive the jedi and spread their teachings would be a concern to them.

Also keep in mind that the younglings were killed by Anakin-Nearly all the Jedi in the galaxy were wiped out in one fell swoop at the beginning of the empire. after that, its a needle in a haystack trying to find new recruits across the galaxy, and stay undergound.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's also kind of wierd how so many people from the first trilogy knew each other in RotS but never talked about it. Why didn't R2-D2 use his little rocket boosters or his head mounted laser gun in the other movies?

R2- I figure that Antilles let him fall into disrepair? Lame yes.


Oh, an aside, I thought the Moff Tarkin look-a-like was a pretty good match (Unless it was digital)

	20-05-2005 09:37									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui He probably thinks there is no way he's going to survive (doesn't know that Palpatine realizes that he is in trouble... without that he would have died). And he wouldn't kill him while he is dying... that would be something a Sith would do.

Maybe he was weak and couldn't finish off his brother himself?

	20-05-2005 09:50									#67
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quote: Actually the introduction of Episode numbers was in ESB, which was called Episode V.

No it wasn't. As somebody who wasn't an infant in 1980 (hell, were you even born then?) I can easily attest that the film was called The Empire Strikes Back. Had you gone around calling it "Episode 5" people would've given you blank looks and asked you wtf you were taking, may I have some please.

This crap about calling the movies by "episode numbers" and the renaming of the original movie did not begin until the late 1990s - 1997 to be exact (I was wrong about it beginning in earnest with TPM):

Star Wars copyright info:

Registration Number: PA-28-102
Title: Star wars / a aLucasfilm, Ltd. production ; producer, Gary Kurtz ; director, George Lucas.
Imprint: [s.l. : s.n.], c1977.
Description: 6 film reels (121 min.) : sd., col., Panavision ; 35 mm.
Note: Deposit includes synopsis (1 p.)CAST: Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher et al.CRED: Music by John Williams; written by George Lucas.
Claimant: acTwentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation
Created: 1978
Published: 5Jun78
Registered: 16Feb79
Author on © Application: Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation, employer for hire.
Previous Related Version: Prev. reg. 1977, LP47760.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: English subtitles for the deaf.
Special Codes: 4/X/L
Cross Reference: ac20th Century Fox. SEE Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.

This copyright notice, filed a full year after the films release because of the mere addition of subtitles, claims that the film is legally titled Star Wars. However, note that when they renewed/updated the copyright upon the rerelease they officially changed the films title:

2. Registration Number: PA-784-316
Title: Star Wars : no. 4, A new hope / a aLucasfilm, Ltd. production ; written and directed by George Lucas.
Description: 6 film reels ; 35 mm.
Claimant: acTwentieth Century Fox Film Corporation (employer for hire)
Created: 1997
Published: 16Jan97
Registered: 17Jan97
Title on © Application: Star Wars : special ed.
Previous Related Version: Preexisting material: motion picture entitled Star Wars, 1977, LP47760.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: newly enhanced visual effects, remixing of sounds, additional sounds and footage.
Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 4/X/L

Sorry, Imran, but the pwning isn't mine - it's everybody elses who "remembers" that the original Star Wars had an episode 4 placard at the beginning of it. The episode numbers didn't begin until ESB when the opening crawl said "Episode 5...", which led to a bit of rampant speculation as to where the other three films were - "did we miss them?"

No, because it was only after the success of SW did Lucas began to earnestly pursue his original vision of a 9-film story, as the copyright info to ESB hints:

Registration Number: PA-72-282
Title: The Empire strikes back / a Lucasfilm, Ltd., production ; produced by Gary Kurtz ; directed by Irvin Kershner.
Imprint: [s.l.] : A 20th Century Fox release, c1980.
Description: 6 film reels (ca. 138 min.) : Panavision, sd., col. ; 35 mm.
Note: Deposit includes credits sheets (4 p.), production information (32 p.) & announcement story (2 p.)CAST: Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher et al.CRED: Screenplay by Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan; story by George Lucas; music by John Williams; director of photography: Peter Suschitzky; edited by Paul Hirsch; special visual effects: Brian Johnson, Richard Edlund.
Claimant: acLucasfilm, Ltd.
Created: 1980
Published: 6May80
Registered: 13Jun80
Title on © Application: Star wars: episode V--The Empire strikes back.
Author on © Application: Chapter II Company, employer for hire.
Previous Related Version: The motion picture Star wars prev. reg. LP47760. Appl. also identifies story treatment & 5th draft of the screenplay, The Empire strikes back, as preexisting material.
Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: motion picture based on preexisting screenplay.
Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
Special Codes: 4/X/L
Cross Reference: cLFL. SEE Lucasfilm, Ltd.

The name of the film was "The Empire Strikes Back." The name of the application was "Star wars: episode V--The Empire strikes back."

However, nobody calls films/books/songs by the name on the copyright application but by the name that the film is actually released under: i.e., The Empire Strikes Back.

	20-05-2005 09:52									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I expected to find reviews and commentary about Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. Neither reviews nor commentary contain spoilers by their very nature. I've read plenty of reviews that don't have any spoilers or warn you if they do. Same with commentary. Oh, and right back at you... edit: And I was never that mad about the spoiler to begin with. It sucks that I know how Mace bites it now, but accidents happen. The fact that I was accused of spewing crap for pointing out the lack of a spoiler warning isn't sitting too well with me however, as is the insinuation that I'm stupid for thinking that "reviews and commentary" does not necessarily equal "spoiler-filled discussion"...

Drake! The thread is about the movie! What did you expect the discussion to be about when you saw the title???

Any thread about any specific piece of art (and I'm using that term in the broadest sense here) should be assumed to be about that specific piece of art. Duh!!!!!

	20-05-2005 09:53									#69
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It was pretty good! I wish there had been some way to swap Count Dooku & G. Grievous plotwise. Dooku could actually make for good political lines, while GG was nothing more than a badass to fight. So give Dooku the screentime.

Sadly, then we'd have missed out on the great, vaguely RotJ style battle in front of the Emperor for his favor, so to speak. Oh well.

I liked the whole Greek tragedy part of the plot a lot- by trying to avert Padme's death, Anakin causes it. Well done.

Other comments too, but perhaps for later. I will say- building the Death Star now?! It took them, oh, 2 years to build most of a replacement in the main series. It took 25 or so years for the first one?! If they showed off PLANS for it, sure.

	20-05-2005 09:55									#70
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The issue about the length of time it took to build DS1 was explained in Clerks - unhappy subcontractors.

	20-05-2005 09:59									#71
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Actually the introduction of Episode numbers was in ESB, which was called Episode V. No it wasn't. As somebody who wasn't an infant in 1980 (hell, were you even born then?) I can easily attest that the film was called The Empire Strikes Back. Had you gone around calling it "Episode 5" people would've given you blank looks and asked you wtf you were taking, may I have some please. This crap about calling the movies by "episode numbers" and the renaming of the original movie did not begin until the late 1990s - 1997 to be exact (I was wrong about it beginning in earnest with TPM):

quote: Sorry, Imran, but the pwning isn't mine - it's everybody elses who "remembers" that the original Star Wars had an episode 4 placard at the beginning of it. The episode numbers didn't begin until ESB when the opening crawl said "Episode 5...", which led to a bit of rampant speculation as to where the other three films were - "did we miss them?"

Um.. self pwnage?

Remember all I said was that the Episode Numbers began with ESB (which had "Episode V" in the crawl), which you confirm... then go on this weird argument that no one called it "Episode 5" colloqually back then, which is something I never said.

Saying the episode numbers started with ESB, which was called Episode V is totally correct, as you've shown with your Title on Application. It was called Ep V - ESB, and that was the name in the crawl (ie, Lucas called it Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back).

	20-05-2005 10:00									#72
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quote: Any thread about any specific piece of art (and I'm using that term in the broadest sense here) should be assumed to be about that specific piece of art. Duh!!!!!

Why do you keep harping on this? I knew the thread was about the new Star Wars movie. I didn't know there'd be descriptions of how major characters die, however. And if there were such descriptions, I figured there would be spoiler warnings beforehand or that the text would be put in a spoiler box, as is the usual custom. I certainly didn't expect to be treated like an imbecile for wishing that people would demonstrate a little courtesy...

	20-05-2005 10:05									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper I know you don't know this, but I've had a horrible week — my father had a heart attack and a dear co-worker died of rapid-spreading cancer after being diagnosed less than a two weeks ago. Suffice to say, your being "spoiled" in a thread whose title clearly marked it as such is of trivial concern to me.

Was that necessary?

	20-05-2005 10:07									#74
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quote: Remember all I said was that the Episode Numbers began with ESB (which had "Episode V" in the crawl), which you confirm... then go on this weird argument that no one called it "Episode 5" colloqually back then, which is something I never said. Saying the episode numbers started with ESB, which was called Episode V is totally correct, as you've shown with your Title on Application. It was called Ep V - ESB, and that was the name in the crawl.

Yes, Imran, but you're missing my point. The name of the first movie was Star Wars, plain pure and simple, both legally and in the publics eye. ESB was released and entitled ESB, ROTJ was released and entitled ROTJ. It wasn't until the prequels came along 20 years later that Lucas revised the copyrights, changed the legal titles of the films, and then, for good measure, changed the title of the first movie completely, and then began demanding that people refer to the original movies by their new names.

Until then, a reference to ROTJ as "Episode Six" would've gotten you *****-slapped for being retarded. And rightfully so.

	20-05-2005 10:09									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Any thread about any specific piece of art (and I'm using that term in the broadest sense here) should be assumed to be about that specific piece of art. Duh!!!!! Why do you keep harping on this? I knew the thread was about the new Star Wars movie. I didn't know there'd be descriptions of how major characters die, however. And if there were such descriptions, I figured there would be spoiler warnings beforehand or that the text would be put in a spoiler box, as is the usual custom. I certainly didn't expect to be treated like an imbecile for wishing that people would demonstrate a little courtesy...

That's your problem for assuming, Drake.

My problem was assuming that people who entered a thread entitled "Post your ROTS reviews and commentary here" would, in fact, expect ROTS reviews and commentary.

	20-05-2005 10:10									#76
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Well, I can see this is going nowhere...

	20-05-2005 10:13									#77
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FOX just said that RotS has been downloaded 16,000 times from 2 illegal websites.

	20-05-2005 10:14									#78
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Remember all I said was that the Episode Numbers began with ESB (which had "Episode V" in the crawl), which you confirm... then go on this weird argument that no one called it "Episode 5" colloqually back then, which is something I never said. Saying the episode numbers started with ESB, which was called Episode V is totally correct, as you've shown with your Title on Application. It was called Ep V - ESB, and that was the name in the crawl. Yes, Imran, but you're missing my point. The name of the first movie was Star Wars, plain pure and simple, both legally and in the publics eye. ESB was released and entitled ESB, ROTJ was released and entitled ROTJ. It wasn't until the prequels came along 20 years later that Lucas revised the copyrights, changed the legal titles of the films, and then, for good measure, changed the title of the first movie completely, and then began demanding that people refer to the original movies by their new names. Until then, a reference to ROTJ as "Episode Six" would've gotten you *****-slapped for being retarded. And rightfully so.

I think you are backtraking. You said the introduction of episode numbers came with TPM. That is patently not true since the crawl of ESB had "Episode V" in it. The introduction of episode numbers means when episode numbers were first used, not when colloqually used.

And I still don't get how TPM made episode numbers colloqually acceptable.

And Lucas demanded people refer to the movies by their new names? He may have power but not that much power.

	20-05-2005 10:20									#79
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Backtracking? The only thing I backtracked on was my claim that the episode numbers were officially put in the titles when TPM was released - as noted, it actually began a mere 2 years earlier (1997) when Lucas offically retitled the first film and refiled the copyrights for the original three movies with his new naming system.

Again, note that I'm talking about the title of the movie, not the name that's on the copyright application - which is distinct from the actual title.

quote: And I still don't get how TPM made episode numbers colloqually acceptable.

I don't get it either. But people do it, so...

	20-05-2005 10:28									#80
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quote: The only thing I backtracked on was my claim that the episode numbers were officially put in the titles when TPM was released - as noted, it actually began a mere 2 years earlier (1997) when Lucas offically retitled the first film and refiled the copyrights for the original three movies with his new naming system.

Um... the crawl for ESB said "Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back". The title may have been called The Empire Strikes Back, but the episode numbers were introduced in that movie with the crawl.

quote: I don't get it either. But people do it, so...

No, I didn't get how you could make that claim. Before TPM, people called the first movie Episode 4 or A New Hope. Perhaps not in your circles, but definetly in mine.

And with the internet it is simply quicker to call it Ep 2 than Clones or AotC (which people may not get).

	20-05-2005 10:31									#81
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Rules o' thumb:

JohnT almost always knows what he's talking about when it comes to movies.

Imran Siddiqui is generally right about most things.


Therefore, there is probably some truth to what both of you are saying.

	20-05-2005 10:33									#82
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quote: Rules o' thumb: JohnT almost always knows what he's talking about when it comes to movies. Imran Siddiqui is generally right about most things. Therefore, there is probably some truth to what both of you are saying.

Perhaps so... maybe we are talking across each other instead of at each other.

	20-05-2005 10:34									#83
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quote: No, I didn't get how you could make that claim. Before TPM, people called the first movie Episode 4 or A New Hope. Perhaps not in your circles, but definetly in mine.

Did you not read the post you quoted? I already conceded that the title revisions began 2 years previously, with the re-releases.

However, as a person who actually saw ESB on opening day (skipping school and all that), the "Episode 5" thing was almost as much of a shock as the Vader revelation (which I won't mention, lest I spoil Drake.) Again: not a single soul called the movie "Episode 5" nor thought to do so until 1997.

And your circle couldn't have called SW "A New Hope" before then because both "Episode 4" and "A New Hope" wasn't anywhere near the title until the copyright revisions. Check my previous post with actual US Copyright information if you doubt it.

	20-05-2005 10:35									#84
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quote: the "Episode 5" thing was almost as much of a shock as the Vader revelation (which I won't mention, lest I spoil Drake.)

Cute...

	20-05-2005 10:36									#85
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quote: Did you not read the post you quoted? I already conceded that the title revisions began 2 years previously, with the re-releases.

Before that... mid 90s.

quote: However, as a person who actually saw ESB on opening day (skipping school and all that), the "Episode 5" thing was almost as much of a shock as the Vader revelation (which I won't mention, lest I spoil Drake.) Again: not a single soul called the movie "Episode 5."

How does that contradict my saying that episode numbers were introduced in ESB? In fact you seem to confirm it.

Lucas called ESB "Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back" in the crawl.

	20-05-2005 10:36									#86
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: No, I didn't get how you could make that claim. Before TPM, people called the first movie Episode 4 or A New Hope. Perhaps not in your circles, but definetly in mine. Did you not read the post you quoted? I already conceded that the title revisions began 2 years previously, with the re-releases. However, as a person who actually saw ESB on opening day (skipping school and all that), the "Episode 5" thing was almost as much of a shock as the Vader revelation (which I won't mention, lest I spoil Drake.)

	20-05-2005 10:39									#87
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Imran is right, by the way.

	20-05-2005 10:41									#88
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quote: How does that contradict my saying that episode numbers were introduced in ESB? In fact you seem to confirm it.

I didn't "seem to confim it", I actually confirmed it.

Again, my point is that the films were never referred to by episode numbers until after Lucas revised the copyrights (see cite above) for the re-releases. Then everything the man released used the new naming convention, meaning young whippersnappers with no experience with the original release of the movies could be fooled into thinking that they were always referred to by episode numbers and that a film called Star Wars didn't actually exist because it was really named A New Hope.

	20-05-2005 10:42									#89
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(Btw, I nominate this for the 2005 "most pointless argument - Arts division" award). Anybody second?

	20-05-2005 10:44									#90
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Of course you think he's right - you're pissed at me for the spoiler thing. Disregard the actual copyright information that I provided which shows that the actual titles for the original movies did not have episode numbers, which shows that the original movie was simply called Star Wars, and yes: Imran is correct. Regardless of what actually happened.