20-05-2005 10:45									#91
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The first movie was definitely known as Star Wars when it first came out. There's no doubt about that.

Episode IV: A New Hope was always in the text crawl at the beginning, but the movie was known as Star Wars.

As more and more episodes got added, the name "A New Hope" became more and more prevalant, in order to differentiate the series from the original movie in that series.

	20-05-2005 10:49									#92
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The first movie is still known as "Star Wars" to most people. I can't think of anyone who calles it "A New Hope."

	20-05-2005 10:49									#93
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Again, my point is that the films were never referred to by episode numbers until after Lucas revised the copyrights (see cite above) for the re-releases. Then everything the man released used the new naming convention, meaning young whippersnappers with no experience with the original release of the movies could be fooled into thinking that they were always referred to by episode numbers and that a film called Star Wars didn't actually exist because it was really named A New Hope.

A. Who cares if the 1977 release is called "Star Wars" or "A New Hope"? When the entire series is called Star Wars, it makes sense to differentiate it.

B. People refered to the first movie as Episode 4 or A New Hope before the re-releases. I NEVER remember called the first movie "Star Wars". That was for the series as a whole.

	20-05-2005 10:49									#94
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quote: Of course you think he's right - you're pissed at me for the spoiler thing.

That and the fact that he is right. I remember watching the movies back in the late 80's/early 90's and they all had episode numbers in the opening crawl.

	20-05-2005 10:50									#95
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quote: Of course you think he's right - you're pissed at me for the spoiler thing.

How did I know John was going to say that. I wonder what it means if John thinks everyone is that petty .

	20-05-2005 10:53									#96
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quote: Episode IV: A New Hope was always in the text crawl at the beginning, but the movie was known as Star Wars.

You see, this is where manipulation of films after release makes arguments such as this impossible. As somebody who saw the film when it was first released, "Episode 4: A New Hope" was not on the crawl in the films original run. I saw the damn thing about 10 times in the summer/fall of 1977 and it wasn't there.

I mean, ****! I had everything SW related - trading cards, "making of" books, action figures, watches, the whole merchandising shebang, and not once did they refer to the film as "Episode 4" or "A New Hope", it was always just Star Wars. Oh, yeah, it was mentioned that there were 8 other films and that the second was in the works, but nobody called the thing, and it never referred to itself, as "Episode 4."

Associating episode numbers with the films started with ESB and only in the opening crawl - hence the confusion referred to earlier upon revelation. Actually referring to Star Wars by "episode number" didn't begin until the late 1990's, a fact buttressed by the quoted copyright revision.

	20-05-2005 10:55									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Of course you think he's right - you're pissed at me for the spoiler thing. That and the fact that he is right. I remember watching the movies back in the late 80's/early 90's and they all had episode numbers in the opening crawl.

And I remember watching the film when it was in its first run and I can guarantee you that SW did not have "Episode 4 - A New Hope" in the crawl. Period.

Imran, you're wrong because the copyright says your wrong. Until you can go back in the past and convince Lucas to revise his first application, you will always be wrong.

	20-05-2005 10:56									#98
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Who should I believe? JohnT or my own lying eyes?

	20-05-2005 10:58									#99
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According to Wikipedia, Star Wars was retitled Episode IV: A New Hope in 1981:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_W..._IV:_A_New_Hope

JohnT pwns.

	20-05-2005 11:00									#100
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As a Star Wars junky growing up I can remember the original three had episode numbers listed on the intial written part from their original release.

	20-05-2005 11:00									#101
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quote: According to Wikipedia, Star Wars was retitled Episode IV: A New Hope in 1981:

No one ever disagreed on that point...

	20-05-2005 11:00									#102
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ars_re-releases

quote: The line "Episode IV: A NEW HOPE" was added to the opening crawl from 1981 forward.

	20-05-2005 11:01									#103
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According to the US Copyright Office, it was officially retitled Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope in 1997.

JohnT pwns Wiki.

	20-05-2005 11:01									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: According to Wikipedia, Star Wars was retitled Episode IV: A New Hope in 1981: No one ever disagreed on that point...

Um, at least two people so far have...

	20-05-2005 11:02									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Who should I believe? JohnT or my own lying eyes?

Or the copyright office, upon whose cited data I'm basing my argument?

	20-05-2005 11:03									#106
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quote: Um, at least two people so far have...

Who? Maybe Jaguar, but Imran has been arguing that the usage of episode numbers dates back to the release of The Empire Strikes Back, which is correct.

	20-05-2005 11:03									#107
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quote: Imran, you're wrong because the copyright says your wrong.

So the crawl in ESB did NOT say "Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back"? You confirmed it did! You confirmed your pwnage and then continue to argue! It's incredible!

quote: Actually referring to Star Wars by "episode number" didn't begin until the late 1990's, a fact buttressed by the quoted copyright revision.

Nope, we refered to as Ep 4 during the mid 90s and early 90s.

And Boris just confirmed that the movie was retitled Ep 4 - A New Hope in 1981! Far earlier than the late 90s, don't you think?

	20-05-2005 11:06									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin As a Star Wars junky growing up I can remember the original three had episode numbers listed on the intial written part from their original release.

You were 1 year old when the original film came out, 4 when ESB came out, and 7 when ROTJ was released.

I gotta tell you - I seriously doubt that you remember the first-run of SW.

	20-05-2005 11:06									#109
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT According to the US Copyright Office, it was officially retitled Star Wars Episode 4: A New Hope in 1997. JohnT pwns Wiki.

Who CARES what the OFFICIAL title was (ie, it's not relevant at all)? Was it or was it not added to the opening crawl well before the late 90s? Introduced far before the time period you are stating it was introduced.

	20-05-2005 11:08									#110
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@ geeks arguing over something as petty as this

	20-05-2005 11:08									#111
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It was retitled but the scolll had "Episode 4" in it from the beginning. It just wasn't part of the title before 1981.

	20-05-2005 11:09									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Um, at least two people so far have... Who? Maybe Jaguar, but Imran has been arguing that the usage of episode numbers dates back to the release of The Empire Strikes Back, which is correct.

Jaguar and Oerdin, to be precise.

I don't care, really, what their argument is about, but I'll reiterate: nobody except a small contigent of geeks refers to the first film as either "episode 4" or "a new hope" The overwhelming majority of people think of the first film as "Star Wars," period.

	20-05-2005 11:10									#113
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Ladies and gentlemen, let me clarify:

1. I'm talking about the actual title of the films. Not what went on in them.

and

2. I'm talking about what people called the films when they were released.

There was no "Episode X" crap in the American vernacular: the films were referred to by their official titles as displayed, advertised, and legally registered with the US copyright office. Until 1997 that is, when Lucas changed the names of the films which required a revision to the earlier copyrights.

Note the damn cites! You could look it up yourself if you think I'm bullshitting you.

How difficult is this to understand, especially as I've stated my position time and time again?

	20-05-2005 11:11									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It was retitled but the scolll had "Episode 4" in it from the beginning. It just wasn't part of the title before 1981.

You do realize this has already been proven false?

quote: The line "Episode IV: A NEW HOPE" was added to the opening crawl from 1981 forward.

The original release did NOT feature the title "A New Hope"

	20-05-2005 11:11									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't care, really, what their argument is about, but I'll reiterate: nobody except a small contigent of geeks refers to the first film as either "episode 4" or "a new hope" The overwhelming majority of people think of the first film as "Star Wars," period.

Got a cite to back that claim up . Every time I've heard it discussed it was called Episode 4 or A New Hope. Calling it Star Wars when that is the name of the series is just a scene ripe for confusion.

	20-05-2005 11:11									#116
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Maybe Sophie can explain it in smaller words for the others?

	20-05-2005 11:13									#117
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Ladies and gentlemen, let me clarify: 1. I'm talking about the actual title of the films. Not what went on in them. and 2. I'm talking about what people called the films when they were released. There was no "Episode X" crap in the American vernacular: the films were referred to by their official titles as displayed, advertised, and legally registered with the US copyright office. Until 1997 that is, when Lucas changed the names of the films which required a revision to the earlier copyrights. Note the damn cites! You could look it up yourself if you think I'm bullshitting you. How difficult is this to understand, especially as I've stated my position time and time again?

You talked about when the episode numbers were 'introduced'. Sorry, but to most people 'introduced' means when they were first seen. That would be Episode V - Empire Strikes Back.

And how did Lucas changing the copyrights suddenly make people call the movies Episode X? Was there a brain wave involved? That is your greatest leap and most unconvincing.

	20-05-2005 11:14									#118
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quote: Jaguar and Oerdin, to be precise.

So, in terms of correctness it's...

Imran >>>>>>>>>> John T > Jaguar and Oerdin

	20-05-2005 11:15									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Got a cite to back that claim up . Every time I've heard it discussed it was called Episode 4 or A New Hope. Calling it Star Wars when that is the name of the series is just a scene ripe for confusion.

I've got years of experience growing up as a Star Wars kid in the 1980s. I challenge you to go to the man on the street and ask them what they think of the movie "A New Hope." Nine out of ten won't have a clue what you're talking about. Say "Star Wars," and most will think of the 1977 original movie. That's the vernacular that existed for the longest time: Star Wars, then Empire Strikes Back, then Return of the Jedi.

And what confusion are you alluding to? Who the hell would get confused by it?

	20-05-2005 11:15									#120
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we're also arguing about who is really arguing