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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
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quote:
That's just it, they [i]don't], by and large. |
Of course they do. Look at any internet forum. It's refered to as Episode 4 or ANH (if you want to be brief). It's why JohnT gets so pissy, because, in his opinion, it didn't USED to be that way.
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He was anticipating the prequels, and by establishing Star Wars as "Episode IV," it would indeed eliminate confusion when he released TPM as "Episode I." |
Um... everyone realized that the "Star Wars" was Ep 4, ESB was Ep. 5, and RotJ was Ep. 6. Calling it the PREQUALS and then calling TPM as Ep. 1 is not difficult to follow... most people watch the crawl.
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Only the prequels are known by their episode numbers.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/
IMDB calls it "Star Wars," and relegated the episode number and "ANH" to subtitled status. |
I'm surprised you didn't check ESB and RotJ:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080684/
IMDB calls it "Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back".
and:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086190/
"Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi"
So no, according to your IMDB test, the prequals are not the only ones known by episode number.
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still to this day MOST people wouldn't have a clue as to what you'd meant if you said "Episode IV" or "A New Hope." But if you say "Star Wars," most people are going to know you mean the 1977 film. |
You need to talk to more people. People know what "Episode IV of Star Wars" is. Or they'll call it "The first Star Wars movie".
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But if I say, "I love the part in Star Wars when Han shoots Greedo," nobody who has seen them will say, "Wait, you mean ANH/Ep IV, not Star Wars!" |
I like LOTM's description:
quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
as a general rule, if i say, "I love the part in Star Wars where Darth says "Luke, I AM your father"" (Sic) nobody says "wait you mean Empire Strikes Back". Of course they dont correct the quote either. Cause the folks I hang with arent like such nerds. But if someone wants to distinguish the first movie from the others, they generally DO say "the first movie" or "episode 4" |
Thanks LOTM... that's exactly what I'm talking about! Star Wars can refer to the series as a whole (and does often). When you want to distinguish the first movie other phrasing is used.
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centrifuge
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
quote:
It's why JohnT gets so pissy, because, in his opinion, it didn't USED to be that way. |
It's not opinion, Imran, it's fact. Sorry the legal cites are irrelevant, but thems the facts, boy. |
It is indeed fact, but unfortunately this is one fact that many of the younger generation of fanatical nerds may never know.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
That's just it, they don't], by and large. |
Of course they do. Look at any internet forum. It's refered to as Episode 4 or ANH (if you want to be brief). It's why JohnT gets so pissy, because, in his opinion, it didn't USED to be that way. |
Internet forums != the majority of people. More evidence you live in a fantasy land.
Internet forums tend to be highly specialized in topic and hence, by default, draw the uberfans. That says nothing to what a majority of people believe.
Note that in [i]this thread in this forum, most people have disagreed with you. So much for your claims.
quote:
Um... everyone realized that the "Star Wars" was Ep 4, ESB was Ep. 5, and RotJ was Ep. 6. Calling it the PREQUALS and then calling TPM as Ep. 1 is not difficult to follow... most people watch the crawl. |
First, I would heartily dispute this. Until TPM was released, most people would have been bewildered had you referred to the 1977 film as either Ep 4 or ANH. Just because there's a note in the crawl doesn't mean that's how everyone thinks of it. I've asked a dozen people so far about this, and not a one knew a) which episode number was which and b) that the original was titled ANH. This is, by and large, only something SW fans know and keep to heart.
quote:
quote:
Only the prequels are known by their episode numbers.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/
IMDB calls it "Star Wars," and relegated the episode number and "ANH" to subtitled status. |
I'm surprised you didn't check ESB and RotJ:
So no, according to your IMDB test, the prequals are not the only ones known by episode number.
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Imran, you just practiced very disengenuous quoting and you damned well know it. The statement about the prequels only being known by their episode numbers was quite clearly referring to the rottentomatoes listing. Yet you parse it out here in a blatant strawman.
At any rate, your IMDB cites are self-defeating of your argument that the original film is commonly known by its number or ANH. If that were the case, why wouldn't they give it the same nomenclature as they do they other titles? There is utterly no reason not to do so, should your hypothesis be correct. You've pwned yourself.
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You need to talk to more people. People know what "Episode IV of Star Wars" is. Or they'll call it "The first Star Wars movie". |
You need to grow up and realize you're in the minority here. I find it funny you say this, when most people in this thread have disagreed with you, including most everyone who was actually alive when the films were originally released. As I said before, I was an original Star Wars kid and grew up with this stuff. You're a Johnny-Come-Lately trying to revise history without providing a shred of evidence to support your silly assertions. 
quote:
Thanks LOTM... that's exactly what I'm talking about! Star Wars can refer to the series as a whole (and does often). When you want to distinguish the first movie other phrasing is used. |
In cases for which clarification is needed, saying "The first movie" or "The original Star Wars" is a far cry from saying "Ep4 or "A New Hope." People will do the former two often, the latter two much less so, because most people dont know those are its designations. Only SW geeks do. That's been my point, so someone saying "the first movie" doesn't in anyway contradict what I've been saying.
Last edited by Boris Godunov on 21-05-2005 at 05:25
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:21
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I remember seeing the subtile of "A New Hope" in about the 4th time I saw the original Star Wars, but no one ever called it "A New Hope", just like at the TV guide, If they are showing the originbal movie, they say Star Warsm thats it. Its not like anyone really ever says that The Empire Strikes Back is really called Star Wars:....., even though when you look at the opening credits, you see first Star Wars, then as the story Scrolls, the Empire Strikes Back.
Having seen the movie, first: worst scroll ever! WAR!
I disliked the whole Palpatine rescue scene, lacked any real excitement. I also do not like the protrayal of Grievous-he is not that scary at all.
Yet, this was certainly FAR better than eiother of the previous prequels. the scenes between Anikin and Padme are still badly scripted, but are more heartfell this time. Overall the action is OK, though most of the light sabre battles are not as good as the one in the firt movie against Darth Maul.
About as good as Revenge of the Jedi, I say. Fitting.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
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quote:
Internet forums != the majority of people. More evidence you live in a fantasy land.
Internet forums tend to be highly specialized in topic and hence, by default, draw the uberfans. That says nothing to what a majority of people believe.
Note that in [i]this thread in this forum, most people have disagreed with you. So much for your claims. |
Why are internet forums not based on Star Wars high specialized and thus draw the uberfan?
As for THIS thread... why don't we look at Kaak's thread as which is the best... he distinctly includes Episode 4 and A New Hope in his description of the first movie. In most other threads the first episode is refered to as ANH of Ep4, unless if it is JohnT who makes a point to call it 'Star Wars' and scolds people for calling it ANH (he's done it at least 3 times I can remember).
In most Star Wars threads (where what it is called is not debated), the first movie is differentiated by refering to it as "Episode 4" or "A New Hope" or "The first movie".
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First, I would heartily dispute this. Until TPM was released, most people would have been bewildered had you referred to the 1977 film as either Ep 4 or ANH. Just because there's a note in the crawl doesn't mean that's how everyone thinks of it. |
Oh come on... in the mid 90s people knew ESB as Episode 5 and RotJ as Episode 6. Obviously, the first one would be..... Episode 4! When distinguishing among movies, the easiest way would be to refer to the first one by episode number or the first one.
quote:
Imran, you just practiced very disengenuous quoting and you damned well know it. The statement about the prequels only being known by their episode numbers was quite clearly referring to the rottentomatoes listing. Yet you parse it out here in a blatant strawman.
At any rate, your IMDB cites are self-defeating of your argument that the original film is commonly known by its number or ANH. If that were the case, why wouldn't they give it the same nomenclature as they do they other titles? There is utterly no reason not to do so, should your hypothesis be correct. You've pwned yourself. |
Oh please. You cited the rottentomatoes as evidence that the original trilogies were not or are not refered to by reference number. IMDB shows opposite.
As for IMDB not including the Episode number for 'Star Wars', the episode number wasn't included in the crawl for the first movie... while they were for Empire Strikes Back since the beginning.
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You need to grow up and realize you're in the minority here. I find it funny you say this, when most people in this thread have disagreed with you, including most everyone who was actually alive when the films were originally released. |
Because people who were alive when it was released are final authorities on how it was refered to in the early to mid 90s... you know, like 10 years after release?
And I think most people who were around have shown that the episode numbers were introduced in ESB... as one person said, he was shocked when he saw the episode number.
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In cases for which clarification is needed, saying "The first movie" or "The original Star Wars" is a far cry from saying "Ep4 or "A New Hope." |
Um... no it isn't. 'The first movie' is the same thing because it is trying to distinguish "Star Wars" the movie from Star Wars the series by not using the confusing words "Star Wars" to refer to the first movie (aka, Episode 4, aka A New Hope). They are all the same thing, ie, another way to reference the first film released in the Star Wars series.
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JohnT
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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:21
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Darth Vader's thoughts upon finding out that the plans for the Death Star were on the lifepod that went down to Tatooine:
Ah, Tatooine... home.
I remember my misspent youth, wasting days upon days learning how to race speeders, building droids, and doing everything I could to foil moms owner.
... Mother. 
I avenged you, but could never bring you back. I'm so sorry, mom! How can you ever forgive me?
It was here where it all started, my life, my hatred of the Jedi order, my association and training with Obi Wan Kenobi, my small initial forays into the Dark Side, my first massacre.
"Anakin Skywalker." Heh. That's a name I haven't heard in years. I wonder if my cousin still lives down there? Won't he be surprised if I just showed up - "Look at me! I'm somebody now, Owen! Let's go out for steak and beers and we'll catch up on old times - you can tell me about the contretemps you've been having with binary droids, and I... I can tell regale you with tales about the slaughter of planets and the betrayal of billions."
****... don't have the time. Gotta find those plans. We'll leave the farmer in peace, maybe catch up with him next time I'm in-system.
I wonder what happened to that protocol droid I built? I'm sure he's been salvaged by now - surely nobody would be stupid enough to keep Lord Vaders pet droid with them.
And now we're back here, back where it all began.
Coincidence?
How could it be anything but?
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Why are internet forums not based on Star Wars high specialized and thus draw the uberfan? |
Why would non-Star Wars fans be participating in a heated discussion about Star Wars, in whatever forum? Man, you really don't think your arguments through very well...
quote:
As for THIS thread... why don't we look at Kaak's thread as which is the best... |
Why? Because he's one poster and you're only using it because it appears to support your argument, not because it has any sort of real validity. Why is Kaak an expert and all the people who have disagreed with you here not? I'm sorry, I didn't realize Kaak was the SW guru. (no offense meant to Kaak for being unwittingly drawn into this).
At any rate, one person who is obviously a fan (since he's making a thread on it) numerating the movies is hardly evidence that this how all the films are commonly referred to.
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In most Star Wars threads (where what it is called is not debated), the first movie is differentiated by refering to it as "Episode 4" or "A New Hope" or "The first movie". |
That's not the issue and you know it. The issue is, do most people out there in the real world know the first movie as "Star Wars" or as "Ep 4" or "ANH." Overwhelmingly, people think of it as "Star Wars." Only people who have some sort of commitment to the films as a fan really refer to the original movies by episode numbers at all.
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Oh come on... in the mid 90s people knew ESB as Episode 5 and RotJ as Episode 6. Obviously, the first one would be..... Episode 4! |
No they didn't. As I've said before, this is a complete bullshit assertion on your part. JohnT and I have offered proof of this on several fronts, you've offered none. First are the 1997 legal name changes, and second are the special edition tapes. If everyone knew them by their episode numbers, why are they nowhere to be seen on the special edition boxes?
And they weren't on the theatrical posters, either:
http://www2.gascp.com/starwars/pic/...StrikesBack.jpg
http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/P...oster_13776.jpg
So why, if the movies were never branded by ep number in either, would most people even think to call them by such? Because of a 5-second appearance of a number in the crawl? Sure.
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When distinguishing among movies, the easiest way would be to refer to the first one by episode number or the first one. |
One last time--until the prequels came out, it was quite easy to distinguish the films. It was the same as the distinction in the special edition tapes. You had "Star Wars," you had "The Empire Strikes Back," and you had "Return of the Jedi." Nobody except fanboys really knew or cared about the episode numbers. The trend of calling them by such numbers did not start until TPM was released.
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Oh please. You cited the rottentomatoes as evidence that the original trilogies were not or are not refered to by reference number. IMDB shows opposite. |
No Imran, I cited it to show that the 1977 movie is commonly known as Star Wars, not Ep 4 or ANH. That rottentomatoes didn't list the others as such either was icing on the cake. But you still can't deny that it is just called "Star Wars" on two of the biggest movie sites. Yahoo Movies is the same. If most people know the film by Ep4 or ANH, why would they not call it such, especially since the name has been legally changed to such for 8 years now?
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As for IMDB not including the Episode number for 'Star Wars', the episode number wasn't included in the crawl for the first movie... while they were for Empire Strikes Back since the beginning. |
This is another disingenuous argument. The ep number was added to the crawl in 1981, as my wikipedia cite showed. It has also been in all the tapes (despite St. Leo's claim, which I think is wrong). So since IMDB has been around, that has always been in the crawl, so your assertion here is completely devoid of logic.
On top of that, once again, the film was officially renamed in 1997, as JohnT showed. So there's no reason for IMDB to not include the ep number and ANH as part of the main title.
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Because people who were alive when it was released are final authorities on how it was refered to in the early to mid 90s... you know, like 10 years after release? |
People who have been around since the creation of the films and were fans are certainly more of authorities on whay their traditional nomenclature are as opposed to, oh, say, Kaak, whom for some reason you think is an expert on it.
When arguing about what most people know the films as, why is it unreasonable to cite the fact that people who were around when the films first were released have a much broader perspective on it than whippersnappers who missed out on the first 15-20 years of SW fandom?
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And I think most people who were around have shown that the episode numbers were introduced in ESB... as one person said, he was shocked when he saw the episode number. |
No one's disputed that the Episode numbers weren't there, Imran. Jesus ****ing Christ, that's evident from the wikipedia article I cited. That's not the point, and you know. It's whether or not that 5 second ep number appearance in the films somehow magically made people commonly refer to the films by the numbers, despite the clear fact that none of the first three movies were branded with the ep numbers whatsoever. Get a lesson in branding from Ming and you'll see why your thinking this is patently stupid.
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In cases for which clarification is needed, saying "The first movie" or "The original Star Wars" is a far cry from saying "Ep4 or "A New Hope." |
Um... no it isn't. 'The first movie' is the same thing because it is trying to distinguish "Star Wars" the movie from Star Wars the series by not using the confusing words "Star Wars" to refer to the first movie (aka, Episode 4, aka A New Hope). They are all the same thing, ie, another way to reference the first film released in the Star Wars series. |
Oh lord. You've taken goal-post moving to a new height.
Once again: My argument has only been that the overwhelming majority of people do not use "Episode 4" or "A New Hope" to distinguish the first film. That's because most people a) consider "Star Wars" to be the title of the 1977 film and b) don't really know the episode numbers or ANH title for it. Not fanboys, but most people. In situations where a distinction is needed, most people will say "the first movie" or "the orginal movie," sure. Which further supports my point that most people don't follow the episode numbers for the original 3 films nor know ANH as the first film's title.
Until you provide actual evidence for your claims to the contrary, this is pretty much just going to continue you being a nay-sayer sans proof. Both JohnT and I have offered evidence for our positions, and all you've offered is "no it's not."
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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50 million...how much did your ticket cost?
I wonder how that works out in 1977 dollars.
Way back when, when I was a child and had to trek (can I use that?) for miles, through huge snow drifts to get to the theater, it was only a nickel...or a couple of bucks anyway. This movie, which all of todays lazy youthians can take a bright, shiny bus to, costs $6.50?...I think someone said.
Maybe when refigured in '77 dollars it's not as big as Star Wars...
Or, when refactored for population...
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
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quote:
Why would non-Star Wars fans be participating in a heated discussion about Star Wars, in whatever forum? |
Who says they are participating in heated discussions? A casual watcher of Star Wars can't pick his favorite movie in Kaak's poll?
quote:
Why? Because he's one poster and you're only using it because it appears to support your argument, not because it has any sort of real validity. Why is Kaak an expert and all the people who have disagreed with you here not? |
Cause NO ONE has complained about his usage. Everyone has treated it as normal.
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The issue is, do most people out there in the real world know the first movie as "Star Wars" or as "Ep 4" or "ANH." |
No, that isn't the issue. The issue is what do most people call the first movie when discussing the entire body of movies and how do they differentiate it.
You said back on page 3 that most people think of the first movie as "Star Wars", period! Ie, they don't have any idea of it being "Episode 4" in the series (hard to believe since everyone I know has called a Star Wars movie "Episode X" at least once).
quote:
No they didn't. As I've said before, this is a complete bullshit assertion on your part. JohnT and I have offered proof of this on several fronts, you've offered none. First are the 1997 legal name changes, and second are the special edition tapes. If everyone knew them by their episode numbers, why are they nowhere to be seen on the special edition boxes? |
HELLO, the crawl perhaps? As JohnT said, he was 'shocked' that the episode number came up in ESB. If he remembers it with such surprise, don't you think other people do as well?
Of course the crawl is important! In the serial nature that Lucas had in mind, that was the title of the episode in the grand space opera. People wondered what came before and after. In the mid 90s people were wanting Lucas to complete his master plan and do 1, 2, 3 and 7, 8, 9. Of course Lucas says he's going to stop with 3, but that doesn't mean that people didn't know about the trilogy of trilogies back then.
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If most people know the film by Ep4 or ANH, why would they not call it such, especially since the name has been legally changed to such for 8 years now? |
According to your assertion, people didn't consider ESB as Episode 5 or RotJ as Episode 6 until TPM came out. So why did they call them by their episode number? IMDB probably looked at the original crawl. The 1977 showing of StarWars didn't have Episode 4 in it (or A New Hope). Empire and Jedi did have those in the crawl.
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That's not the point, and you know. It's whether or not that 5 second ep number appearance in the films somehow magically made people commonly refer to the films by the numbers |
Of course it's the point! People knew, because of the crawl, that ESB was Ep 5, and RotJ was Ep 6 (making the first one Ep 4). And sometimes when distinguishing between films, people would refer to episode numbers instead of names.
I ask you the same thing I asked JohnT. How did changing the copyright, MAGICALLY make everyone change what they called the movies? You've admitted, at least, that after TPM people called the movies by episode number. Was the movie filled with brainwashing magic?
I mean what 'proof' is it when the argument is that people use episode numbers today to refer to the movies because Lucas changed the copyright, which 99% of people do not know! How did that magically change what people called the movies?
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21-05-2005 01:01
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(Ohh the glory days 
)
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