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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:22
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To prevent of hostile takeover of this forum by Senethro  I'll post the beginnings of a mod I've been working on (very) casually. While I'm pretty happy with the way the biotech & Planettech side of the tech tree is shaping up (though of course nothing is yet set in stone), I'm kinda stuck on the other side of the tree due to my limited knowledge. I could use lots of help for the computer, physics and materials technologies!
The overall goal of this modification pack would be to widen the strategic choices available to the player. Over the years a number of ‘best strategies’ have been developed of which deviating can be lethal in a multiplayer game. Most of us here all know them: race to crawlers, tree farms and air power. Use chop&drop in combat as soon as available. Forest & Forget, or go advanced all the way, with no overall third terraforming strategy available… This leads to whole aspects of the game being unused as unprofitable, for example a fungal strategy to name just one. With six years of experience behind us, we can identify these forgotten aspects and try to rebalance them so they become a viable strategy next to the already familiar ones. This can only increase the fun of our beloved game! For example I intend to make native life cheaper to breed, and Centauri techs will make fungus more productive earlier. Air power less attractive, naval power more attractive etc...
Regarding the tech tree in general, I'd like it to make more sense, ie as much as possible more logical connections between the techs, the various benefits (abilities, base facilities...) being related to techs making more sense. (In standard SMAC one can very often wonder why the hell a tech would give a certain benefit.)
Regarding the names of the technologies, personally I'd like to minimize the following categories as much as possible:
- 'Doctrine' techs. Rename them all! Even if it is just by changing 'Doctrine' into 'Know-how', to indicate that the inhabitants of Chiron aren't reinventing the hot water strategy-wise, but that it were the technical skills that were lacking.
- Ideological techs. Cyberethics, Intellectual Integrity, The Will To Power... There is Social Engineering for a reason. Personally I don't want to be forced to 'research' a certain ideology to complete the tech tree.
- 'Advanced' techs. If one has to use the word 'Advanced' in a tech name, I'd say it's a sign of lack of inspiration.
- Meaningless tech names. Super Tensile Solids. That can be anything. Pre-Sentient Algorithms: that tech simply says something has NOT yet been developed.
- Generally weird stuff. For example Synthetic Fossil Fuels. Perhaps it's just me, but I consider it a rather absurd idea to create fossil fuels, especially since there are other energy sources available. Also eg Planetary Networks. When that is discovered, usually one hasn't yet met any other faction, so it's a little early to speak of 'Planetary' Networks.
Anyway, I've attached some of the tech stuff I've already written down. I've also included the social engineering system I'd like to use. Of course most factions would have to be redesigned to work with this system.
I hope you'll find it interesting, and perhaps post some ideas. 
 Attachment: smaniac.zip
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:22
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Downloaded your proposal archive and took a look at the modified SE.
Will provide a review shortly, but meanwhile my proposal on NL.
Original manufacturable NL values:
code:
#UNITS
25
...
Mind Worms, Infantry, Psi, Psi, 1, 5, 0, CentEmp, 3, 00000000000000000000000000
Isle of the Deep, Foil, Psi, Psi, 7, 8, 4, CentMed, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Locusts of Chiron, Gravship, Psi, Psi, 4,10, 0, CentGen, -1, 00000000000000000000100000
...
Sealurk, Foil, Psi, Psi, 6, 6, 0, CentPsi, 4, 00000000000000000001000000
Spore Launcher, Infantry, Psi, Psi, 0, 5, 0, Bioadap, 5, 00000000001000000000000000
...
Modified values:
code:
#UNITS
25
...
Mind Worms, Infantry, Psi, Psi, 1, 2, 0, CentEmp, 3, 00000000000000000000000000
Isle of the Deep, Foil, Psi, Psi, 7, 5, 4, CentMed, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Locusts of Chiron, Gravship, Psi, Psi, 4, 8, 0, CentGen, -1, 00000000000000000000100000
...
Sealurk, Foil, Psi, Psi, 6, 4, 0, CentPsi, 4, 00000000000000000001000000
Spore Launcher, Infantry, Psi, Psi, 0, 2, 0, Bioadap, 5, 00000000001000000000000000
...
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Cataphract887
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nice document
quote:
1) LIBERTIES
Democracy: +1 TALENT, +1 RESEARCH, -2 POLICE, -1 SUPPORT
<->
Police State: +1 SUPPORT, +2 POLICE, -2 RESEARCH
2) STATE STRUCTURE
Unitary: +2 PROBE, +1 SUPPORT
<->
Federal: +2 EFFIC, -1 SUPPORT
=>
Unitary Democracy: +1 TALENT, +1 RESEARCH, +2 PROBE, -2 POLICE
Federal Democracy: +1 TALENT, +1 RESEARCH, +2 EFFIC, -2 POLICE, -2 SUPPORT
Unitary Police State: +2 SUPPORT, +2 POLICE, +2 PROBE, -2 RESEARCH
Federal Police State: +2 POLICE, +2 EFFIC, -2 RESEARCH
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i think your making a mistake very common with custom faction files,and one i avoid at all cost when making my own factions; so many bonus and negatives its a big jumbled mess  3 effects for each SE choice imho
quote:
Private / Free Trade: +3 ECONOMY, +1 RESEARCH, -2 TALENT, -2 INDUSTRY
Planned: +2 GROWTH, +1 INDUSTRY, -2 EFFIC
Private / Protectionist: +2 ECONOMY, -2 TALENT, -1 INDUSTRY |
i think you have this reveresed.a economy protected by tarrifs is stronger than one more indentifable as water(flowing downhill)
case in point: our US economy. our econ is based on slave labour like never used before the civil war,our industrial capacity is droping,morality is fast disapearing\disapeared and the government spends more than it earns.even more,people are using credit and not saving,,and our wealth has reached such staggering heights that the realization that the real wealth is slipping away-the ability to self sustain and produce more than you consume-has gone unnoticed except for out-spoken people like myself 
quote:
Angels
add mind control immunity
Politics, Federal Democracy, RESEARCH
Ruling Elite, Junta, POLICE |
no mind control is good RP-wise,people in an anarchist society have more willpower to resist authority then in not
think ill take a few minutes to read your techtree
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Cataphract887
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oh nm i see u made one
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mart7x5
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The TALENT social effect works a bit weird. I made +++Talent in Frontier, just to see how it works, and Gaians seem to have only +2, also PK get 3, which is +1 standard and +2. Hive, Morgan have though like +3.
Tech Tree
How about making separate lines of technologies/doctrines/knowledges?
- Separate for sociological advances, which would unlock SE settings.
- Separate ecological/centauri advances which would pertain to the planet
- Psi advances
- Medicine advances
- technical ones
This would make possible "specialization" of factions. E.g. Spartans would develop technologies in order to get applications of weapons neglecting maybe planetary or medicine lines. Might be interested in psi or economy, but rather stealing them. Morgan would push for social oer economic line, neglect ecology, Gaians would go for ecology and from techs would get only those for terraforming, buying or stealing the best military from others if needed. etc.
I also would make many "dead end" technologies, which would simulate applications, which not necessarily faction would need to develop, especially ones giving weapons or armors or SP techs. So some "dead end" techs might be completely neglected in the game. That would make it really diverse, much less boring. some builder games might at all neglect early military techs, only getting advanced weapons in the end-game. Some might never go for psi techs, just feeling ok if scouts or scout rovers would take care of mindworms.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Cataphract887
i think your making a mistake very common with custom faction files,and one i avoid at all cost when making my own factions; so many bonus and negatives its a big jumbled mess 3 effects for each SE choice imho |
Agree with you there to a degree. Problem is that I've been trying to create the SE system so that one can still have the same reach of possible SE factor values as in the original. And scrapping one value somewhere could unbalance the whole system. Eg if I wanted to simplify support by just giving them Police State +2 support and democracy nothing, then it would become impossible to have -2 Support.
However, now you mention it, the +1 Research for Democracy could be scrapped, and PS could be given -3 Research without a problem. In fact it would improve the system IMHO.
This would give a value less for the two democratic choices, and the maximum # of values would be 4 (like the future societies in standard SMAC). 
Also keep in mind the Talent SE factor doesn't have a symbol, so adding that won't overcrowd the SE window.
quote:
case in point: our US economy. |
So do you consider the US economy closer to 'free trade' than protectionism? (Just asking to be sure: I've seen people having completely opposite opinions on that. )
quote:
i think you have this reveresed.a economy protected by tarrifs is stronger than one more indentifable as water(flowing downhill) |
This is already more or less what I intended. Protectionism has a lower Industry penalty (only -1 Industry) to reflect that more jobs are kept in your own faction. Free Trade has a higher Industry penalty (-2) to reflect outsourcing and moving to lowe-wage factions etc, but on the other side it creates more commerce (and therefore the higher SE Economy), and more contact with and openness for foreign innovations (+1 Research). Basically it's a 'more minerals or more energy' choice that I'm suggesting here.
How would you do these choices?
quote:
Originally posted by mart7x5
The TALENT social effect works a bit weird. I made +++Talent in Frontier, just to see how it works, and Gaians seem to have only +2, also PK get 3, which is +1 standard and +2. Hive, Morgan have though like +3. |
Weird.  I tested out this SE factor some years ago and IIRC there were some limits to how high and low you could go with Talent SE, but different factions getting different boni sounds odd (and annoying  ).
quote:
Tech Tree
How about making separate lines of technologies/doctrines/knowledges?
- Separate for sociological advances, which would unlock SE settings.
- Separate ecological/centauri advances which would pertain to the planet
- Psi advances
- Medicine advances
- technical ones |
To a certain extent I've been trying to do this. Eg it's possible to advance in Planettech without researching a single conventional weapon (and vice versa). It's also possible to easily get to the techs required for an early conquest rush. The biotech line will contain all medical advances I think. I'm open to ideas how to improve this. I'm kinda running out of ideas myself now.
quote:
Originally posted by GeoModder
On the tree farm for Gaians proposal. I feel that Gaians are more environment protectors, not 'users/abusers' of their surroundings. Therefore I suggest to give them free Centauri Preserves instead to simulate their one-with-nature tendencies.
A tree farm is a sort of 'harvested' forest, not a natural growing forest. |
If they can't harvest forests, what can the Gaians eat then though? Every living being uses its surroundings. As far as I can see the question is not "Do we affect our surroundings?" (if you don't want to do that, the only option is to kill yourself. ), but rather "Is our use of the environment permanently damaging it or not?" With that in mind, I guess the Gaians would think that making wise use of (Terran-Chiron-mixed hybrid) forests (while of course trying to minimize their impact on them, as much as reasonably possible) is better than other options such as building condenser farms or mines all over Planet.
quote:
Originally posted by #endgame
I took a look at your tech tree so far - you seem to have violated your own naming guidelines: Military Know-How (which you established to be Doctrine:Military) -> Military Doctrine (which also sounds like Doctrine:Military). I suggest you reconsider the naming here. |
Yeah I know.
quote:
... but I can't think of anything better. |
That's my problem.
Anyone else have an idea? 
Oh yeah, I attached an updated version, with all of the concrete tech ideas I had in mind written down. All open for change of course!
Attachment: smaniac.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).
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Cataphract887
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quote:
* 'Doctrine' techs. Rename them all! Even if it is just by changing 'Doctrine' into 'Know-how', to indicate that the inhabitants of Chiron aren't reinventing the hot water strategy-wise, but that it were the technical skills that were lacking. |
ok...but only and ONLY if you can get BETTER names.
quote:
* Ideological techs. Cyberethics, Intellectual Integrity, The Will To Power... There is Social Engineering for a reason. Personally I don't want to be forced to 'research' a certain ideology to complete the tech tree. |
definitly take these out of the prequisite list,but keep them as techs.
quote:
* 'Advanced' techs. If one has to use the word 'Advanced' in a tech name, I'd say it's a sign of lack of inspiration. |
i only see a few of thse,like Aspaceflight.what do you suggest then instead?
quote:
* Meaningless tech names. Super Tensile Solids. That can be anything. Pre-Sentient Algorithms: that tech simply says something has NOT yet been developed. |
i like PSA  but STS suxorz
quote:
* Generally weird stuff. For example Synthetic Fossil Fuels. Perhaps it's just me, but I consider it a rather absurd idea to create fossil fuels, especially since there are other energy sources available. Also eg Planetary Networks. When that is discovered, usually one hasn't yet met any other faction, so it's a little early to speak of 'Planetary' Networks. |
quote:
The extreme efficiency with which the neural net
fungus managed Planet's vast ecosystem kept extensive
deposits of organic material from forming over the epochs.
Because of this lack, the fossil fuels known on Earth
never developed, forcing early colonists to rely on less
efficient alternative sources of energy. However, advances
in [Advanced Subatomic Theory (B3)] and [Gene Splicing (B3)]
finally allow humans to short-circuit the eons-long process,
providing them with the {Synthetic Fossil Fuels} needed
to build advanced vehicles and machinery. |
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mart7x5
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I reworked a bit tech tree. The lines are:
Bio/Med
|--> Psi subline
Centauri (Ecology)
Progenitor (their philosophy and techs)
Sociology
Economy
Technical
|--> Maritime sub-line
|--> Aviation sub-line
Military doctrine
Information
---------------------------------------
The lines merge at places, just a few of them. This may make the game more interesting. Instead of converging tree, where all techs had mostly 2 prerequisite, here they have 1 prereq. and 2 only at merges.
Weapons for attack are mainly in "dead-end" techs of technical. Progenitor tree contains resonance weapons, and this is separate line. One can now choose which one to follow. Progenitor techs are stopped at (12) on attack and (8r) armor. String resonance is merge of technical and progenitor lines, I mean you need to follow both.
I thought also about some other drastic changes to make the game completely different feel. E.g. I tried to get AI build more crawlers. I was succesful to some extent, but what I have in mind is rather giving the human players different crawling balance between terrain duties and SP hurrying. It is not fully tested yet, I wonder how AI will behave in the end game with it. Still tricks with satellites and crawlers-lurkers are probably the best options, but I had situations where AI built 2-3 crawlers to hurry an SP, also sporadic cases harvesting the terrain. Nice one when Hive built a crawler and put it on the mineral bonus mine on rocky (mine built on AI) It was stunning that AI did completely by itself this +7 minerals haul...
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PJayTycy
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I think such a tree is great for humans, but the AI would be very bad at it. I consider them to choose their research at random (ie: they are not looking forward what tech they want to beeline to). In the smax-tree this works in the beginning, because there you can't really get to many level 6+ techs if you don't have a lot of level 2 techs. In this tech tree, the AI's would end up having a little of each branch, while humans would likely specialize heavily in one of the branches.
PJay
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mart7x5
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There is some room for adjusting values of techs in alphax. And then to testing...
I have to finish that modification and test it. I am very curious how AI would perform.
Last edited by mart7x5 on 10-06-2005 at 12:38
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mart7x5
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Actually it may be quite interesting. Gaians or faction pursuing planet techs, maybe Cult, would get resonance technology quite fast, maybe even faster than long technical/industrial/weapons line. Planet factions would then base on this techs, while spartans or university would follow the line human develop. Then you would really contact Morgan for economic advances and Gaians for ecological findings. Sounds like quite in line with factions' agenda profiles.
Also some late techs might be possible to research pretty fast, so tech stagnation might be an option. Then more stress is put on acquiring technologies by trade.
Techs in this tree diverge, not converge. For example, faction not interested in space flight may not research it at all. This in my oppinion may bring more playstyles into game.
I thought also about giving suply ability from the very start. Sharing resources is not a sci-fi stuff actually, so why not give it to early colonists? Such alien planet colony would probably base in large extent on resources crawled from the terrain around. It is different than a worker, but while worker gets all nut-min-energy, crawling gives only one of them.
I experimented with extremely cheap suply. Does not work for AI. I try the expensive option. AI likes making crawlers for SP hurrying.
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mart7x5
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Many abilities are now completely rescheduled. E.g. supply is available from the start and it is ridicously cheap. Here is alphax, which works with standard game installation, I believe. Do not forget to backup old alphax.txt
I just started first test. 11 turns and factions seem to do pretty good. Spartans do military techs. Yang goes into his paranoia with militarism and Gaians go Centauri/ecology line.
Attachment: alphax_techline_experiment.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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Cataphract887
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well im sure its great,but intuil next monday afternoon i will have zipo access to any games using a alphax.txt
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mart7x5
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I tested the file a bit. Results are interesting, with adjustment of values factions really do follow what they like. Especially Gaians go planetary (colonization) techs. They get transced specialist pretty soon. Some factions go several lines together, like discover and military. Zakharov seems to like information line a bit better maybe than industrial. He also builds cover ops center like crazy. He changed from technocracy to police state, Gaians too and stayed in rationed economy not going to green.
so still some work to do.
Maniac, see if the tech tree would suit you, or this is completely something you are not into. Maybe I should create separate thread for this ideas.
Alphax updated soon.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:22
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What did you change in your alphax.txt? On first sight I can't notice anything. 
Btw, are you Nethog?
quote:
Originally posted by mart7x5
The TALENT social effect works a bit weird. I made +++Talent in Frontier, just to see how it works, and Gaians seem to have only +2, also PK get 3, which is +1 standard and +2. Hive, Morgan have though like +3. |
Hmm, I can't confirm this after a couple tests myself.  Everything seemed to work fine for everyone, except for the Peacekeepers who indeed have a talent less than they should have (though in another test they did get the correct number of talents ).
quote:
Originally posted by Cataphract887
The extreme efficiency with which the neural net
fungus managed Planet's vast ecosystem kept extensive
deposits of organic material from forming over the epochs.
Because of this lack, the fossil fuels known on Earth
never developed, forcing early colonists to rely on less
efficient alternative sources of energy. However, advances
in [Advanced Subatomic Theory (B3)] and [Gene Splicing (B3)]
finally allow humans to short-circuit the eons-long process,
providing them with the {Synthetic Fossil Fuels} needed
to build advanced vehicles and machinery. |
I know the theory behind it, but does that theory make sense? I'm not a chemist, but wouldn't you have to put as much energy into the process to create those fossil fuels than you would at a later date get out of them? Meaning it's at best a zero profit operation? Then the only advantage would be its "extremely efficient package" to quote Morgan, to fuel vehicles. But the SMAC universe already has fission reactors for that, and I assume in the 22th century there would also be hydrogen engines available for the lighter vehicles.
quote:
Originally posted by mart7x5
I experimented with extremely cheap suply. Does not work for AI. I try the expensive option. AI likes making crawlers for SP hurrying. |
Would be great to make the AI more competitive in SP building. Perhaps include a crawler with a high cost in the list of basic #UNITS? Do you know from which cost the AI starts building them to cash in for SPs? The best compromise would be that they are expensive enough for the AI to consider building them for SPs, but cheap enough so the AI can build them fast, also in less productive bases.
quote:
Originally posted by mart7x5
Maniac, see if the tech tree would suit you, or this is completely something you are not into. Maybe I should create separate thread for this ideas. |
I must say I'm with Cataphract on this one. A tech tree where you need to research about everything to advance isn't fun and doesn't allow much choice or strategy. But the opposite - straight lines with only one prerequisite - doesn't allow for much strategy or choice either as far as I can see.
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mart7x5
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quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
But the opposite - straight lines with only one prerequisite - doesn't allow for much strategy or choice either as far as I can see. |
On the other hand, you have to choose if cooperate with the faction that does the line you do not. if steal or not. Or maybe do researching of several lines simultaneously. In my tests Morgan did simultaneous. Spartans mainly industrial/military. Gaians almost all ecology. Choices are in the techs in the "dead ends" you now have choice:
- research particle technology for impact units or:
- omit that tech to get better weapons, if you are fast enough to afford not getting impact guns.
I think it brings more strategy since it gives you choice of omitting so many techs. You can get them all, but it is not necessary. No longer required
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25-05-2005 21:28
i didnt even notice the industry..your explanation is perfect 
you had multiple techs allow same thing! like(just for example) centauri med allows silkisteel armour as well as its other bonuses,but SA still gives silksteal also ... making it viable to go up wacky tech paths.
the last third of tech tree is just zzzzzzzzz and all the coolest abilites are there...amybe all the cool stuff could be moved back(and some tuned down) to earlier techs 
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