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MarkG is offline MarkG
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 00:47 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Nazi help Brits find morality again? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Nazi case may open door for Elgin Marbles' return

A British court case over art looted by the Nazis could pave the way for Britain to return Greece's Elgin Marbles, whose ownership the two countries have long disputed.

Britain's Attorney-General, Lord Peter Goldsmith, has asked the High Court to establish whether the British Museum - home to treasures like the Marbles and the Rosetta Stone - has a moral duty to return property obtained improperly.

The museum wants to return four Old Master drawings stolen by the Nazis from a Jewish collector in the 1930s but British law prevents it disposing of anything in its vast collection.

If the court rules that Lord Goldsmith - the Government's top legal advisor - can give his permission for the works to be returned, it could prompt demands for the museum to hand back other works.

"It would allow them to return any items in their collection if they thought there was a moral obligation to do so," said a spokesman for the Attorney-General's office.

But final permission for any works to leave the country would always lie with the Attorney-General, he added. Lord Goldsmith has reserved judgment on whether he will allow the Old Masters to be returned once the High Court has made its ruling.

The Elgin Marbles, a series of statues and fragments, were removed from the Parthenon in Athens by British ambassador Lord Elgin in the early 19th century and sold to the British museum.

Greece has demanded them back almost ever since, most recently for last Summer's Olympic Games.

The museum said at the time that returning the friezes would rip the heart out of a collection that tells the story of human civilisation.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem...05/s1377111.htm

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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I'm a Brit (dual nationality) and a student of Classical Greek.

They're yours and it is a disgrace that they have not been returned.

Japher is offline Japher
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 00:50
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Got spare money?

Are those works on display?

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
I'm a Brit (dual nationality) and a student of Classical Greek.

They're yours and it is a disgrace that they have not been returned.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 00:53
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Re: Nazi help Brits find morality again? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
quote:
Nazi case may open door for Elgin Marbles' return

A British court case over art looted by the Nazis could pave the way for Britain to return Greece's Elgin Marbles, whose ownership the two countries have long disputed.

Britain's Attorney-General, Lord Peter Goldsmith, has asked the High Court to establish whether the British Museum - home to treasures like the Marbles and the Rosetta Stone - has a moral duty to return property obtained improperly.

The museum wants to return four Old Master drawings stolen by the Nazis from a Jewish collector in the 1930s but British law prevents it disposing of anything in its vast collection.

If the court rules that Lord Goldsmith - the Government's top legal advisor - can give his permission for the works to be returned, it could prompt demands for the museum to hand back other works.

"It would allow them to return any items in their collection if they thought there was a moral obligation to do so," said a spokesman for the Attorney-General's office.

But final permission for any works to leave the country would always lie with the Attorney-General, he added. Lord Goldsmith has reserved judgment on whether he will allow the Old Masters to be returned once the High Court has made its ruling.

The Elgin Marbles, a series of statues and fragments, were removed from the Parthenon in Athens by British ambassador Lord Elgin in the early 19th century and sold to the British museum.

Greece has demanded them back almost ever since, most recently for last Summer's Olympic Games.

The museum said at the time that returning the friezes would rip the heart out of a collection that tells the story of human civilisation.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitem...05/s1377111.htm


Well, if you heathen savages could be trusted to properly care for your cultural legacy, the Brits wouldn't have needed to steal it from you in the first place. You should be thankful for all they've done.

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Are those works on display?
yes, the british museum gets tons of cash every year due to their display

they even rent the section where they are displayed for parties (sorry, social events)

Agathon is offline Agathon
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quote:
Are those works on display?


Should it matter? The Elgin Marbles should be on display in Athens, where they belong.

The Brits are always doing this. Some of the local Maoris in NZ had a tough time getting back the shrunken heads of their ancestors – the Poms are so shameless that they'll gripe about keeping someone's dead grandpa.

Japher is offline Japher
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 00:55
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What about all the Egyptian artifacts?

MarkG is offline MarkG
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Re: Re: Nazi help Brits find morality again? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Well, if you heathen savages could be trusted to properly care for your cultural legacy, the Brits wouldn't have needed to steal it from you in the first place. You should be thankful for all they've done.
we've got plenty of people to play the troll michael

btw, what the thieves left are in better state

Maquiladora is offline Maquiladora
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Jun 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
I'm a Brit (dual nationality)


quote:
the Poms are so shameless that they'll gripe about keeping someone's dead grandpa.


You have been reported.

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
What about all the Egyptian artifacts?
[british museum]they still 've got the pyramids, what more do they need?[/british museum]

Agathon is offline Agathon
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quote:
What about all the Egyptian artifacts?


ditto. They belong to the Egyptians. How would you feel if someone ripped off your stuff and took it to England.

Every nation should have the first option on its own cultural treasures. The only situation where this should not hold is when it would damage the treasures in question, and that is a question to be decided by UNESCO or some other impartial organization.

Verto is offline Verto

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Mar 2002
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Wouldn't having all those things back just be a constant reminder of how pathetic you (Greece) have become?

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 01:00
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

@Verto

I think the decision is up to the Brits, and I think it would a nice gesture, but I would get all steamed if they don't.

Kalius is offline Kalius
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Aug 2002
time: 16:22
  Old Post 26-05-2005 01:02
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I'm British full nationality and it is a disgrace these have not yet been returned. Any excuse for having them ended in 1945

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 01:03
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I thought all you socialists weren't suppose to be so materialistic!

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
The scandal, hushed up for 60 years, is disclosed in a book to be published next week by William St Clair, a world expert on the marbles. It says British Museum curators in the late Thirties scrubbed many of the 2,500-year-old marbles with metal scrapers in an attempt to make them look white by removing original paint and the weathered patina. When the extent of the damage was realised, some marbles were hastily re-coloured with a stained wax and the museum used Whitehall secrecy rules to cover up the episode. Mr St Clair said yesterday that he believed the historic surfaces of 80 per cent of the Parthenon marbles, removed to Britain by Lord Elgin in 1801, have been lost forever. What scholars and visitors have seen for the last 60 years is not the naturally-stained patina of Phydias's original marbles but the results of a botched conservation carried out in secret to the orders of the late Lord Duveen, one of Britain's most controversial players of the art market.


http://www.museum-security.org/reports/03498.html

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 01:14
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There was an add in the paper a few months ago from the Royal Ontario Museum, seeking information on the historical owners of a native-american artifact that they had in their collection so that it could be returned to a first nations tribe.

MarkG is offline MarkG
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canadians >> brits

Verto is offline Verto

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bah. If you want something back, you should take it by force.

Maquiladora is offline Maquiladora
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Jun 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Wouldn't having all those things back just be a constant reminder of how pathetic you (Greece) have become?


Like this thread?

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
bah. If you want something back, you should take it by force.
is that the american way of doing things?

Japher is offline Japher
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 01:35
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Got spare money?

First we sue.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 26-05-2005 01:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
quote:
What about all the Egyptian artifacts?


ditto. They belong to the Egyptians. How would you feel if someone ripped off your stuff and took it to England.


But that's not what happened. The Brits took stuff over 100 years ago that was made by someone 2000-5000 years ago. I don't see how that stuff belongs to modern Egypt any more than anyone else, particularly since the Egyptian state was not in existence then, nor is it a successor of the ancient Egyptian culture. It just happens to occupy the same land.

The Egyptians are long gone.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Re: Re: Nazi help Brits find morality again? Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Well, if you heathen savages could be trusted to properly care for your cultural legacy, the Brits wouldn't have needed to steal it from you in the first place. You should be thankful for all they've done.




I'm turning into a rank cultural chauvanist.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The Egyptians are long gone.


No they aren't. You think there were enough Bedouin tribesman to completely obliterate the native Egyptians? In Egypt, as in most places where the Arabs conquered, most people became Arabs, adopting Islam and the Arabic language since it made it easier to get along and chepaer to live. Even still, the Coptic people still survive, even today, and even if you believe all Arabs everywhere are deended from the Arabic peninsula, the Copts are the original Egyptians.

Unlike the Greeks, who died out in the 14th Century.

alva is offline alva
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Sep 2001
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* alva expects PH to (re)post his "special" picture.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Jan 1970
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I have British Nationality and I think its a disgrace that they have not been used to taunt the Greeks more than they have.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Brits damage marbles in an attempt to restore them.

Greeks ground marbles into mortar to use as building material.

MarkG is offline MarkG
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quote:
Originally posted by Dauphin
I have British Nationality
i thought you were australian....

 
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