26-05-2005 23:20									#121
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Pg 354, Vol 1a. But that isn't as detailed as The New Cambridge Modern History.

MarkG is right.
it doesnt say anything of the sort... wow

http://print.google.com/print?id=e9...Lkk3ybvYqiYff0s

	26-05-2005 23:21									#122
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Well its an interesting question: Should the Germans return the Nydam-boat they got after the 1864 war with Denmark: It was a part of the peacedeal, but Denmark was in no position to deny the Germans anything.

Also Denmark has an etruscian bronzechariot stolen from an Italian excavation in 1964. That should probably be returned.

But the problem is, besides the possible snowball-effect, that some countries that have had returned artifacts, have sold them to private collectors. I know this would'nt probably happen in Europe, but the possible snowball-effect could make more corrupt countries demand artifacts home, just to be sold afterwards, and then nobody would have joy of them.

And besides sometime the way the artifacts has got to their present home-country, tells about the history at that time. Wars, colonizations, etc.

	26-05-2005 23:21									#123
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quote: Pg 354, Vol 1a.

a link would help.

	26-05-2005 23:22									#124
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i gave the link!

	26-05-2005 23:22									#125
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 MarkG is right. it doesnt say anything of the sort... wow http://print.google.com/print?id=e9...Lkk3ybvYqiYff0s

It hints at it.

	26-05-2005 23:24									#126
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Yes it says Greeks in Morea suffered heavily under catholic rule.
BTW see how it is written from the "western"point of view. and has many ay8eresies (in english ??) in the way it describes things and persons. (xaraktirismous ktl)That's common to most such works. (brom both sides though)

	26-05-2005 23:25									#127
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG yes, the british museum gets tons of cash every year due to their display

The British Museum is free.

Personally I favour returning them, though I believe they were offered before with conditions of them being on public show and in conditions that would preserve them, and it was rejected. I think them being preserved and on show is more important than the actual location, though I would favour them being in Greece.

	26-05-2005 23:30									#128
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You don't pay a dime to visit the british museum are you sure?

BTW this

I believe they were offered before with conditions of them being on public show and in conditions that would preserve them

is a local myth i'm afraid. never heard of it. very difficult to imagine this happening.

	26-05-2005 23:34									#129
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Frankly, if I were Greece, I'd turn down any conditions also. The Marbles are not Britains to give, with or without conditions. They belong to Greece, rightfully, and should be returned unconditionally, no matter how much fun it is to tease Greeks.

	26-05-2005 23:35									#130
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 You don't pay a dime to visit the british museum are you sure?

I didn't pay a dime to enter. I did pay for the audio tour, but most people don't do that.

At the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC, you don't have to pay anything. There is a "suggested donation" of $10, but people can "pay whatever they can afford" to get in.

Regardless, neither the Met nor the BM nor any other public museum is for-profit, anway.

	26-05-2005 23:37									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I didn't pay a dime to enter.

Are you sure you didnt visit at a "Free day"?

	26-05-2005 23:37									#132
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quote: The British Museum is free.

Yep, it was when I was there in the mid 90s. You could just walk in without paying a cent.

	26-05-2005 23:38									#133
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You see, paiktiss, in civilized countries, museums are free. Maybe yours will be free also, one day.

	26-05-2005 23:39									#134
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I retain my reservations about it being free untill I see some link!

that doesnt change much (gets its money from gov and selling souvenirs and can again institute a ticket in the future) but of course it is a great system. leads more people to museums. in greece museums are free on sundays IIRC. the louvre is not free last time i checked.

and civilized countries have their own artifacts to show che and they dont steal

	26-05-2005 23:41									#135
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In Chicago, you have to pay to get in to the museums also, but they do have free days.

	27-05-2005 00:13									#136
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So if the stones of stonehenge turn out to be from Wales, do we have to give them back?

	27-05-2005 00:26									#137
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH If they want them they can come and steal them like we did.

And that shouldn't be too hard...

quote: Thursday May 19, 2005 shows a hoax cave painting of a primitive man pushing a supermarket trolley which was on display in the British Museum in London. The work was planted by an anonymous 'art terrorist' called Banksy and museum staff were alerted Wednesday May 18, 2005, after he put a message on his website, saying that the 10in by 6in rock, 'had remained in the collection for quite some time'. This is not the first time Banksy has stuck fake objects to gallery walls and waited to see how long it takes before curators notice. (AP Photo/British Museum/HO)

	27-05-2005 00:34									#138
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Are you sure you didnt visit at a "Free day"?

I did. It just so happens that every day there is a "free day."

http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/visit/admiss.html

quote: The British Museum is free to all visitors.

	27-05-2005 00:37									#139
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they probably finally felt guilty of taking money for stolen goods

	27-05-2005 00:50									#140
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More likely they want to maximize attendance as much as possible. I sorely miss having the ability to go to the Met any time I wanted. I could spend hours wandering there, and I always paid the $10 suggested donation.

I think a great argument for Britain keeping the marbles is that they will get maximum exposure there. Let's face it--not nearly as many people would be visiting Athens as visit London. So more people get exposed to Greek culture and history than otherwise would. The entire point of museums like the BM is the bring info of other cultures to wider audiences.

But if the marbles go back, it will just be one more ancient Greek artifact among many that no one is really going to go out of their way to see. I don't think returning the marbles will produce any boon to Greek tourism. So it's just a matter of people fussing over a pride issue, rather than having any real desire for the marbles to benefit people.

	27-05-2005 00:56									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov More likely they want to maximize attendance as much as possible.

Maybe, because they dont have a reason to get any money from the gov or selling lots of nice souvenirs.

quote: I think a great argument for Britain keeping the marbles is that they will get maximum exposure there.

That was a previous argument of the BM but it didn't stand. Don't know why.

quote: So it's just a matter of people fussing over a pride issue, rather than having any real desire for the marbles to benefit people.

Says you.

	27-05-2005 00:58									#142
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quote: But if the marbles go back, it will just be one more ancient Greek artifact among many that no one is really going to go out of their way to see.

Because nobody ever goes to Athens to see ancient Greek stuff. No! They go there to quaff ouzo and impregnate Greek women!!!

	27-05-2005 01:06									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Because nobody ever goes to Athens to see ancient Greek stuff. No! They go there to quaff ouzo and impregnate Greek women!!!

That's not what I said. Notice how I pointed out it would be "one among many" in Greece, whereas it has far more special status in London. So it won't create any upsurge in tourism to Greece, as I doubt many foreign nationals will plan a trip there just to see them. Since London sees far, far more tourists, it's logical to assume the marbles will be seen more if they remain there.

I say, keep 'em where more people from all over the world will see 'em. The Greeks lost their "right" to them when they went around destroying all of their own historical artifacts in the first place.

	27-05-2005 01:09									#144
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quote: That's not what I said.

I know that's not what you said. I was being facetious and you fell for it, you lavatory bowl!!!

	27-05-2005 01:18									#145
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You're interfering with the trolling of paiktiss, so cut it out.

	27-05-2005 01:26									#146
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I just needed an excuse to mention ouzo and ******** Greek girls. I'm afraid that the comments of a musically challenged American homosexual was the best I could find.

But I digress....

	27-05-2005 01:36									#147
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Maybe, because they dont have a reason to get any money from the gov or selling lots of nice souvenirs.

The BM is not-for-profit. So they only reason they have to get money is to help remain open. Hardly a terrible goal.

quote: That was a previous argument of the BM but it didn't stand. Don't know why.

Only answer I need is:

quote: Says you.

	27-05-2005 01:49									#148
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Give it up Greece, you're not getting them, tough titty

	27-05-2005 01:52									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Give it up Greece, you're not getting them, tough titty

I reckon you should fight Markos for the Marbles.

Ten pounds says that Markos G flattens and physically humiliates Harrison!!!

	27-05-2005 01:55									#150
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I doubt it, although DanQ could probably physically flatten me