27-05-2005 20:54									#91
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less people in them, better conditions, end to the death penalty, shorter sentences

yes, put white middle class kids in jail and watch the walls come down

	27-05-2005 20:57									#92
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Let the non-violent drug offenders go...the rest can stay.

	27-05-2005 21:00									#93
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What was it that turned you into a racist, Cal?

Yes- I know you've met some blacks you consider to be almost as good as a real white person, but I'm curious as to why you persistantly try to apply manifestly flawed data to uphold a racist agenda while claiming you aren't a racist.

	27-05-2005 21:00									#94
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you've never explained the basis for your race based views - unhappy in life? Feel that someone is getting something you are not?

	27-05-2005 21:02									#95
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snap - X post with the same thought - spooky

	27-05-2005 21:03									#96
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Addled minds think alike.

	27-05-2005 21:11									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp What was it that turned you into a racist, Cal?

Depends what you mean by "racist". As I've explained before, I don't think the word applies to me as it's context in common usage is different to the dictionary definition.

quote: Yes- I know you've met some blacks you consider to be almost as good as a real white person, but I'm curious as to why you persistantly try to apply manifestly flawed data to uphold a racist agenda while claiming you aren't a racist.

I guess the thing that changed my mind on these sorts of things was the realization that the idea of inherent equality between racial groups is ridiculous. As for data, the generally accepted view of race and intelligence among scientists is quite different from the radical egalitarianism espoused by popular culture.

	27-05-2005 21:15									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse you've never explained the basis for your race based views - unhappy in life? Feel that someone is getting something you are not?

I'm pretty happy with life actually. My wife and I recently bought a house and are expecting a baby boy soon. I don't feel cheated out of anything...I just get infuriated by anti-white bias. The USA as a nation is obsessed with race, so that's probably part of the reason I've become so interested in the topic.

	27-05-2005 21:16									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The USA as a nation is obsessed with race

On that point alone I think I'll agree with you.

	27-05-2005 21:21									#100
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Laz & Horse -

I might ask you the same question. What caused you to come to the conclusion that all racial groups are "the same under the skin"?

	27-05-2005 21:30									#101
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Basic human decency, Cal.

	27-05-2005 21:38									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Basic human decency, Cal.

It's a question of science, not ethics. On the ethical question I agree that nobody should be mistreated because of their race, but that is entirely separate from the question of whether or not there are real differences between races.

In fact, not recognising that different groups may perform differently on average results in discrimination against successful groups in an attempt to "even the playing field". Different outcomes for different groups are viewed as concrete evidence of discrimination, standards are lowered, and merit is replaced with a racial headcount.

How would a world in which racial differences are significant look any different from the world we live in?

	27-05-2005 21:50									#103
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Let's say my view became generally accepted in a hypothetical world in which racial differences were insignificant. Who would be harmed? If everyone recognised that individuals differed, and wouldn't necessarily conform to the average, they would still be accepted as individuals. Standards would be applied equally, and eventually you would see equal performance in ever racial group. The hypothetical world would then realize that there were no significant differences between its races.

	27-05-2005 21:59									#104
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Give enough education, stable environments and money to people and they're all pretty much the same.
Although Asher or Kuciwalker for example are definitely more dumb than a boy who grew up on the streets. So maybe that's not definite.

	27-05-2005 22:01									#105
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Why have you persisted in focussing on the thoeries that blacks are less intelligent and more likely to be criminals, Cal?

Let's not fanny around here- those are the ones you've really got a straining erection for.

	27-05-2005 22:03									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Why have you persisted in focussing on the thoeries that blacks are less intelligent and more likely to be criminals, Cal? Let's not fanny around here- those are the ones you've really got a straining erection for.

I'll answer your questions as soon as you answer a few more of mine.

	27-05-2005 22:13									#107
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But yours are so very dull, Cal. Make them more interesting.

	27-05-2005 22:17									#108
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Sorry, but I don't quite have your flair for sarcasm.

As usual I'm willing to treat you with far more respect than you are willing to give in return....looks like this will be another one that goes nowhere.

	27-05-2005 23:01									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Basic human decency, Cal.

What a poor argument, always turning to emotional appeals (i'm a nicer guy, I must be right) when scientific evidence is much to the contrary. It is blantently obvious there are differences, and not all of them can be put down to living conditions and current environmental factors.

	27-05-2005 23:18									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Laz & Horse - I might ask you the same question. What caused you to come to the conclusion that all racial groups are "the same under the skin"?

Various studies ive seen on the questionability of correlations among genetic charecteristics. I recognize there are some conflicting scientific opinions, but I use a Bayesian prior based on my personal experiences of people of different "racial" and cultural backgrounds.

I cant say Im 100% sure that there are zero correlations between traditional racial classifications and psychological traits. I CAN say, that most nature vs nurture debates tend to leave out organic but non-genetic factors (like prenatal nutrition), that racial categories are arbitrary (US "blacks" as a group are reportedly 20% European by origin, according to some studies, and US "whites" as a group have not insignificant amounts of African ancestry. I can say there is sufficient evidence against racialist correlations, and the consequences of accepting such correlations if they are wrong are so negative, that my working hypothesis in life is that they are not there.

	27-05-2005 23:25									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I Despite decades of racial preferences, minority Americans still struggle. Yet according to you this is all whitey's fault.

Its quite possibly the fault of the normal tendency of personality and cultural traits to be passed down by upbringing, independent of genetics.

Alternatively some would say that racial preferences have made it harder for minorities, by aggravating (untrue) stereotypes about them.

Alternatively one might look at the statistics, and note that blacks incomes, educational levels, etc have risen dramatically in the US in the last few decades. Neither the left, which wants to deny progress in the US, nor the racialist right, will acknowledge that, I suspect.

	27-05-2005 23:25									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I might ask you the same question. What caused you to come to the conclusion that all racial groups are "the same under the skin"?

Because people don't think with their skins?

	27-05-2005 23:26									#113
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LOTM-

I think the greater danger lies in the assumption of racial equality. Look back a few posts to see why.

	27-05-2005 23:28									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Because people don't think with their skins?

You assume that all racial groups think alike.

	27-05-2005 23:29									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia LOTM- I think the greater danger lies in the assumption of racial equality. Look back a few posts to see why.

what, that the assumption of racial equality leads to preferences? I dont see that. Lots of Americans believe in racial equality, and oppose racial preferences.

	27-05-2005 23:29									#116
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Is a highly intelligent black person less black?

	27-05-2005 23:32									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You assume that all racial groups think alike.

racial groups dont think. Individuals do. To some extent they are influenced by their cultures. I see no evidence that people from different racial groups think differently apart from their cultures. Do black skinned sunni muslim arabs in Egypt think differently from lighter skinned sunni muslim arabs in Syria? Do they think more like black skinned american Baptists? Do black skinned african american baptists and light skinned african american baptists think more alike, or light skinned african american baptists, and light skinned african american episcopalians?

	27-05-2005 23:32									#118
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its quite possibly the fault of the normal tendency of personality and cultural traits to be passed down by upbringing, independent of genetics.

Twin studies have proven that behaviour is at least 50% genetic.

quote: Alternatively some would say that racial preferences have made it harder for minorities, by aggravating (untrue) stereotypes about them.

Undoubtedly this is true.

quote: Alternatively one might look at the statistics, and note that blacks incomes, educational levels, etc have risen dramatically in the US in the last few decades. Neither the left, which wants to deny progress in the US, nor the racialist right, will acknowledge that, I suspect.

You should have a read of Thomas Sowell's AA book. Things have actually been going downhill for blacks in the US in the last few decades. I don't have the book on me, but I might have time to dig up the reference to the relevant stats later on.

	27-05-2005 23:34									#119
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quote: Is a highly intelligent black person less black?

He would be called an "oreo"; black on the outside, white on the inside. It is considered an insult, and is not only used by white ppl who wish to oppress the black man. Black ppl also use it to indicate their lack of respect for any nigga who doesn't rap, play ball, or live in the hood.

Ain't too proud?! Please my brotha! You too proud and then some!

	27-05-2005 23:36									#120
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark what, that the assumption of racial equality leads to preferences? I dont see that. Lots of Americans believe in racial equality, and oppose racial preferences.

The introduction of racial preferences is always "justified" by unequal outcomes. If the unequal outcomes were viewed as possibly being a result of average group differences, there would be no "justification" for racial preferences.