27-05-2005 23:40									#121
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark racial groups dont think. Individuals do. To some extent they are influenced by their cultures. I see no evidence that people from different racial groups think differently apart from their cultures. Do black skinned sunni muslim arabs in Egypt think differently from lighter skinned sunni muslim arabs in Syria? Do they think more like black skinned american Baptists? Do black skinned african american baptists and light skinned african american baptists think more alike, or light skinned african american baptists, and light skinned african american episcopalians?

Groups are made up of individuals. Individual behaviour has a genetic component. Those with a similar genetic makeup will be more likely to think in a similar manner. Keep in mind that I don't discount environmental influences.

	27-05-2005 23:40									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Let's say my view became generally accepted in a hypothetical world in which racial differences were insignificant. Who would be harmed? If everyone recognised that individuals differed, and wouldn't necessarily conform to the average, they would still be accepted as individuals. Standards would be applied equally, and eventually you would see equal performance in ever racial group. The hypothetical world would then realize that there were no significant differences between its races.

I'm a little confused by this statement. I thought your position was that there were, on average, differences between the races. To take another hypothetical, if it was generally accepted that blacks were, on average, less intelligent than whites (even though individuals wouldn't necessarily conform to average), you think this would lead to no one being harmed and better overall inter-racial harmony?

	27-05-2005 23:44									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Groups are made up of individuals. Individual behaviour has a genetic component. Those with a similar genetic makeup will be more likely to think in a similar manner. Keep in mind that I don't discount environmental influences.

Even if i accept that behavior has a genetic component, youre eliding the difference between behavior and thought, a huge jump. Its also not clear if by "think differently" you mean simply differences in IQ, or differences in ways of thinking. All in all, may I say that your own thinking on this seems rather sloppy and imprecise? Not a credit to our race, are we?

	27-05-2005 23:46									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I'm a little confused by this statement. I thought your position was that there were, on average, differences between the races. To take another hypothetical, if it was generally accepted that blacks were, on average, less intelligent than whites (even though individuals wouldn't necessarily conform to average), you think this would lead to no one being harmed and better overall inter-racial harmony?

I think hes using "significant" in its ordinary language sense, not its statistical sense. But its hard to tell, these racial inferiors are so imprecise

	27-05-2005 23:46									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I'm a little confused by this statement. I thought your position was that there were, on average, differences between the races.

Yes, that's why I call the world with no racial differences hypothetical.

quote: To take another hypothetical, if it was generally accepted that blacks were, on average, less intelligent than whites (even though individuals woudn't necessarily conform to average), you think this would lead to no one being harmed and better overall inter-racial harmony?

It would remove the "justification" for racial preferences.

	27-05-2005 23:49									#126
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Even if i accept that behavior has a genetic component, youre eliding the difference between behavior and thought, a huge jump. Its also not clear if by "think differently" you mean simply differences in IQ, or differences in ways of thinking. All in all, may I say that your own thinking on this seems rather sloppy and imprecise? Not a credit to our race, are we?

Well, I think there is definitely a link between thought and behaviour. Our mind is the only thing that keeps our animalistic urges at bay.

I think there are differences in IQ and ways of thinking...all of the above.

	28-05-2005 00:13									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yes, that's why I call the world with no racial differences hypothetical. It would remove the "justification" for racial preferences.

Did any of that make sense in your head before you typed it? Because it doesn't right now.

	28-05-2005 01:12									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Worthingtons What a poor argument, always turning to emotional appeals (i'm a nicer guy, I must be right) when scientific evidence is much to the contrary. It is blantently obvious there are differences, and not all of them can be put down to living conditions and current environmental factors.

Sunshine- let me fill you in on a few background details here. I've been watching people attempting, like Cal does, to prove that blacks are less intelligent and more prone to criminality due to genetic factors since 1999 on this site. Every one I've happily shot down in flames.

There are many examples in the archives, but if you think you've got science to back you up, then be my guest and attempt to prove it. I can guarantee that I'll enjoy it and you won't.

Go on hotshot. You've stated that science is on your side. Don't be shy.

	28-05-2005 01:23									#129
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Anyone remember this one?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47021

	28-05-2005 02:17									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Sunshine- let me fill you in on a few background details here. I've been watching people attempting, like Cal does, to prove that blacks are less intelligent and more prone to criminality due to genetic factors since 1999 on this site. Every one I've happily shot down in flames. There are many examples in the archives, but if you think you've got science to back you up, then be my guest and attempt to prove it. I can guarantee that I'll enjoy it and you won't. Go on hotshot. You've stated that science is on your side. Don't be shy.

Your position comes not from science, but ideology. You've proven your ignorance on scientific matters relating to racial differences. I remember explaining how genetic similarity works using different breeds of dogs as an example, and you responded by pointing out that dogs have been selectively bred - as if that made a difference to the principle I was illustrating. Your arguments are usually emotional and/or based on ignorance, and you get a real kick out of hurling insults and talking down to people. You have serious psychological problems, probably due to all the bullying you endured in your younger years.

	28-05-2005 02:28									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You assume that all racial groups think alike.

I also assume that blood group, ear group, eye group, chin group, toe group, hand group or tongue group think alike. I don't see any reason to assume that skin group should make a difference, since skin is not implicitly connected to cognition.

	28-05-2005 02:52									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Your position comes not from science, but ideology. You've proven your ignorance on scientific matters relating to racial differences. I remember explaining how genetic similarity works using different breeds of dogs as an example, and you responded by pointing out that dogs have been selectively bred - as if that made a difference to the principle I was illustrating. Your arguments are usually emotional and/or based on ignorance, and you get a real kick out of hurling insults and talking down to people. You have serious psychological problems, probably due to all the bullying you endured in your younger years.

Your position, as demonstrated in the example thread above, is based on cod-science filtered through discussion forums that you post without understanding. You lack either the inclination or the ability to critically evaluate the work you refer to. To cut a long story short, you'll grasp at any straws to prop up a racist agenda which you attempt to present as scientific detachment, and tend to make a fool of yourself in the process.

Despite your attempts to present your position as science, you still can't provide scientific proof that blacks are less intelligent and more prone to anti-social criminality than other races.

What's more, as we've covered many times, if you want to go down the name-calling route, I'll win. You are a genuinely pitiful individual. Why not bring your black friends over to Poly and we'll show them your past posting history?

	28-05-2005 02:57									#133
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5 Euro on Laz. This is going to be great

	28-05-2005 03:15									#134
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Come into the light, Cal. Accept the fact that in desperately looking for some tiny shred of genetic evidence to suggest that the darkies are dumb/bad you're blinding yourself to the massive and overwhelming effect that our environments have.

Accept the fact that despite your apparent conviction that there's a massive evil liberal conspiracy against whitey, we're both white and really doing rather well for ourselves- and likely to continue doing so.

Go to the archives and arrange the threads under your name. Are you proud of that? Would you want to show it to your son's future black girlfriend, or will it be a dirty little secret?

	28-05-2005 04:59									#135
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I have to agree that Laz' greater writing abilities make a flame war a no contest.

As for "whites" being discriminated in the US: I have to laugh at that. OMG! Your kid did not make it into Yale! He only made it into Princeton and Harvard, but if it were not for those dirty Negros, he would have made it into Yale as well!

I would love to see a single White Kid that can prove that they failed to get into any university because negors or Porto Ricans got in instead of them...

Heck, Geographic discriminatione xists as well! If people were chosen purely by a single standard of grades, half of the seats in all universities in the East coast should be filled with kids from NY, NJ, and Connecticut, and then those losers form the lesser states would be forced elswhere.

	28-05-2005 05:22									#136
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Look, Cal. Even if you were completely right, and Laz were completely wrong, he would still win this argument. Why? He writes a hell of a lot better than most people on this site, you included.

What makes this argument even more lopsided is the fact that he is completely right, and you are completely wrong.

However, I encourage you to actually listen to his arguments, and take them seriously. That could be a worthwhile thing to do. But if you are just in it to "win", spare yourself the trouble.

	28-05-2005 05:28									#137
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Why do you hate white people, Jaguar?

	28-05-2005 05:33									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Stupid law. Absolutely stupid law. Race should never, ever, ever, ever be a factor and anyone who tries to make race a factor should be sued out of house and home.

	28-05-2005 05:46									#139
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It is idiots like Cali who makes the Godwinizing, hyper-PC people in some sectors of acedamia think everyone who studies behavioral genetics must be a racist.

	28-05-2005 05:57									#140
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Oh dear...Cali, you are so wrong. Don't even attempt to bring up the genetic argument because there is no proof of any difference in brain function whatsoever between different races, the only differences have been physical to allow adaption to different environment...the brain stays the same as it is the one massive competitive edge the human has in each and every environment.

Besides, even if we went with your argument, would you be willing to accept that people of Mongoloid descent are more intelligent than whities such as you and I, after all that is what the 'evidence' seems to link to. Of course the reality is that the causes of any differences are societal - it's all about opportunity!

	28-05-2005 10:26									#141
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both cali and laz are funny here, for different reasons though :/

	28-05-2005 12:02									#142
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Cali is good for amusement -- in the same way that Ned is good for amusement.

	28-05-2005 12:37									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Twin studies have proven that behaviour is at least 50% genetic.

This is a quote that fascinates me, on a number of points. I'll elaborate-

I'll guess it's research based on separated twins, raised under different conditions. If so, here are some potential shortfalls-

1- To fully distinguish genetic factors from pre-natal nutritional/stimulational factors, the twins would have had to have been separated from conception, not birth. I'm prepared to stick out my neck right now and suggest that this probably wasn't the case.

2- If it places twins in different social settings, does in ask us to assume that there are convenient sets of behaviours attached to such social settings? Do working class babies have working class behaviours and working class school results? This is a minefield all to itself.

3- In focussing on a search for identicality in behaviour, it may well up up focussing so firmly on a few coincidences that it misses the bigger picture. There are few things as complex as human behaviour and interaction, after all. Identical twins, in my experience, often show marked differences in certain areas of the personalities.

Still, Cal thinks it's proof, so I'll wait for him to post "science" that avoids those pitfalls.

	28-05-2005 12:53									#144
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Cali is good for amusement -- in the same way that Ned is good for amusement.

Just lucky they can't make babies together - mini Cal and mini Ned

	28-05-2005 14:05									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Horrendous poverty traps? Why do you think there are so many liquor stores in "poor" neighbourhoods?

Presumably for the same reason there were gin shops in Great Britain in the 18th Century- because people wanted oblivion from everyday life and cheap alcohol helped them achieve it.


The same principle applies with tobacco sales and consumption in developing countries, and the former Soviet Bloc .

Some companies will make a fast buck wherever they can, regardless of moral scruples or the consequences for society.

Why, I believe the U.S. Secret Service even condoned drug trafficking to and in the United States.


Astonishing what people who should know better will do, all for a little bit of money....

	28-05-2005 14:10									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The USA as a nation is obsessed with race, so that's probably part of the reason I've become so interested in the topic.

And so you moved there because you'd researched the country's history and development pretty thoroughly, eh ?

Actually I'm guessing that the Indian Wars, slavery, reservations, the Civil War, Jim Crow laws, the Klan and the Civil Rights struggle must have escaped your attention somehow.


May I suggest you move somewhere more congenial, like Iceland or the Falkland Islands ?


I would have suggested the Confederacy and the Third Reich, but it looks as though those travel opportunities have passed you by.

	28-05-2005 14:17									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Is a highly intelligent black person less black?

No they're just ashamed of their 'superior' white or semitic antecedents.


I mean look at Pushkin and Alexandre Dumas. If it wasn't for their white ancestors they'd have just been mopping floors and shovelling dung all day long.


Everyone 'knows' that black people can't count above twenty, build houses, make art, or write unless they have a Mighty Whitey Injection.


See this mask was clearly made by a European:

	28-05-2005 14:26									#148
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The weird thing is that, having seen Cali's pic, I would have picked him as part Maori.

	28-05-2005 14:27									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The weird thing is that, having seen Cali's pic, I would have picked him as part Maori.

You hush your mouth.

Didn't you know Maoris once ate people, and when white folks showed up they hadn't even invented the combine harvester ?

	28-05-2005 14:29									#150
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I know that Cali thinks that they shouldn't be allowed the same legal rights as other NZers who have been illegally deprived of their property.