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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:23
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No wonder. I tend to get rather passionate and borderline mad when discussing about socialism and welfare state. It automatically reduces my debating skills in eyes of many, but what gets me is the fact that welfare state supporters usually a) don't live in one b) if they do, they can afford it.
You'd think that with such massive system there would be no homeless people? There are lots of homeless people in here. Just go and volunteer in those church food things, and see them coming even from freaking forrests. In HELSINKI! If we wouldn't have welfare state, would they know be OK? No they wouldn't. But if they have to go for church to eat, and to return back to their shacks in the woods with no electricity, more like huts, it's not exactly working now is it. Yes we can't save all. That's true, it's unfortunate, we should do all we can however. Is welfare state the answer? I don't think so.
What these bozos rarely realize is that for example I do support services from tax money such as education, health care etc. Most leftie youth is still just kids of rich parents. They deny it, and many of them aren't, but that's the way it is. They never had to face the bad sides of welfare state when it doesn't function, which is horrible horrible healthcare (because it depends where you are, how good it is), or maybe they didn't have a parent or grandparent who couldn't get a simple operation done that would take few hours and home the next day, but they had to wait for it for 4 to 5 years, and the damage done during that time actually costed more. I should know, my dad lived with strong pain killers for years, his shoulder got busted in the 90s, he got the surgery late last year. couldn't sleep, so much pain there was, so he also needed medication for that. Because there was a long line, others have waited too, you can't just barge in and pass them. Ultimately it resulted with damage to the shoulder that couldn't be repaired, when he actually GOT the surgery done. Also resulted with his stomach all screwed up because of the medication earlier on, so he could sleep with the pain. So now he can't eat much stronger foods than potato, because it will make his stomach throw it all out.
To this, some of these socialists will come and say 'sounds like whining, quit whining'. Like I said, they never had to go through anything else than making sure they're on time when the next meeting is held.
Who are the biggest whiners again, who insult their political counters? Calling them murderers all the time, baby slaughterers and making other people poor? It's like some folks are free targets, while others have immunity it seems like and if you point it out, you are a baby killer yourself.
My point is, there needs to be enough money to support that system. It's a good system, while there is enough money to go around. But when there isn't enough money to go around, it'll make the region lose it's edge in everything it was good at before, lose the competition to others. That means less money in. That means less tax money, that means reduced services and at the end it means the taxes are still high, there's less money going around, the services aren't there anymore and now everyone is screwed, equally.
What they don't do is bring statistics, data and numbers. They will never even try to support their views with facts. They bring you ideology, they might give you as much as 'x % cut on that, x% raise on that one', but you won't ever see any more than that. Why? Because they never really were that good with numbers, because if they were, they'd realize they're beating a dead horse.
I'm not saying it hasn't done any good. It worked here for a long time. But there are reasons why it worked for a long time in here. It's a dead horse now. We are closing down schools, ERs, etc all the time. Welfare cheques have more and mroe requirements, etc. This sounds natural, because it is. But what they never understand is that it's not a working model anymore if it has to come down to that.
They will deny how the world works. They will deny outside competition. They will deny the fact, that if you are not competitive, you are not getting the same share in the future. They will just blame different entities like corporations, this and that. It's all really nice and good really, except it's got nothing to do with how you can make more money. Because in a society you have to have money to keep up the services.
Or you can have **** quality services. In case you have to wonder why pay so much taxes. Taxes are OK but they need to guarantee the quality services, that is the whole idea of the welfare state!!
Economy never was the strong point of socialists. However, the world works around economy, even if we don't want to. We can stop participating in it, show some moral opinion, but we can do it while watching everything going down the crappers. But you have to have passion and idealism when you don't have food.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It's not racial. Turks are caucasian and white. |
They're mongols. But so are Finns, Esthionians and Hungarians. Didn't stop them. Actually Ataturk's reforms had those europianized mongol countries as an example.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes, and some people of NW Europe consider Greeks Black. |
That's a little bit farfetched. You are always trying to prove whatever point of yours with the most acward manner.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:23
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Ned, exactly, here's an example from REAL life, from SUCCESFUL welfare state. We turn EU into big one like that, it won't do half we are doing.
Nokia brings over 1.5 billion euros in tax money to this country. It stays in here only because the managment is still almost fully Finns and they are patriots like that. They would make more profit to get the hell otu fo here, but they don't do that, for no other reason than.. well.. they are still Finns the most of them so they don't want to leave us in a ditch.
You don't want to turn away big companies. They bring SO much money in, the tax money, I just pointed out the 1.5 billion. Our expenses this year is 38 billion euros (if I remember correctly). Now.. 1.5 billion in from ONE company vs 38 billion expenses in whole country. PLUS not forgetting they give jobs to 23 000 Finns. That's 23 000 jobs right there.
Our army budget is something like 2 billion a year. That means one single company pays for the army almost. What I'm saying is, we need more companies like Nokia, so that our state can run and keep it's services up with quality, and better access for all citizens, rich or poor.
And this current way is not going ot make it happen. If you take over 50% from small business owners, plus other expenses, and then add up how much it costs to hire one person to work for you.. no wonder. And it also means that lots of people don't even want to try to begin with! It's been polled latelty that young highly educated people do not want to set up businesses in here. Period.
Other thing is, when you have a good thing going on, you tend to sell your business when the first offer comes. Someone offers you few million euros, you sell it because it's your chance to become rich here, and it might be your only chance. This has lead to a situation where many excellent things have been sold (to mostly Americans) at an early stage, to make that personal money. That's why we don't have an infrastructure for many business fields like Germany and many others have, that's why we are out of many fields by default. And that's why we don't have ltos of competition in here, and that's why the prices are HIGH. Immidiately when Lidl came here with their low prices, everyone complained and filed what ever investigations, trying to block then out of here. Because it meant that there WILL be competition. Everyone had to start lowering their prices. What happened? They reported making more money! SURPRISE SURPRISE!
Stop blaming companies for everything and realize that in this country they freaking keep us alive. And IF we had more succesful companies, which means grass roots work for business training and creating those business minds, because we are notorious for not being able to sell anything, then we'd have MORE tax money. We could have lower taxes, and have MORE quality services, instead of cutting services every year, you get less and less from that tax money.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Even in Roman times, the peoples of Europe recognized a distinction. |
In Roman Times there were no Turks. The only mongols of that time were those of Attila. They don't have a relationship with Turks, apart that they were both mongol tribes (vs indoeuropean) (as linguistically defined I emphasize)
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Bereta_Eder
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and there were no "peoples of europe" in roman times. it was the roman empire and the barbarians (ostrogoths, visigoths mainly and mongols or hunns) untill it all got wonderfully mixed up and you have after a long time the "peoples of europe" who are actually very mixed up from old times
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Bereta_Eder
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Today, no of course. No european peoples is "just something". there have been mixing for centuries.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Who was mixing? Mostly Latins and peoples of Italy, Celts, Germans and Scandanavians. Huns and Magyars to a lesser extent. |
Huns too. Attilla's 700,000 army was half german when he took on the romans (who were also mixing with other indo-european tribes since long before)
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Bereta_Eder
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the problem with the turks entering is not because of any of that. that's why i emphazied that poeple of the same "group" already exist in europe and are members of the eu and one would have to be crazy to say they're not "european".
the problem is much more about the size of turkey's population, it's islamic culture, the lack of democracy and its state of the economy. at least that's what i think.
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Bereta_Eder
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that's because they fear that millions of turks are going to set up shop next to them. it's always about food, all others are dressings. if that's the case ok. those are legitimate reasons but not racist. even culture issues is not racist. from there on then yes i'll accept the term and be amused.
anyway the dice is cast, turkey will sometime in the future get an "association reletion" with the EU and the latter wont expand much. and the road to the EU will be much more dififcult now on. Romania and Bulgaria are the ones who will get it easy. all others will have to walk a long way. in a respect it is a bit unfair to them
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:23
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quote:
Seriously, de Villepin is a terrible choice of a Prime Minister for two reasons:
1. He has NEVER faced suffrage. He has never been elected. It's because of his open love for "high politics", and his dislike of dirtying his hands in elections. As a result, he's unlikely to be humble toward the sovereign people, and the regime's popularity will further go down the drain.
2. He is in the Gaullian tradition of believing in France's status as a "special" country. Heck, I've just heard one of his recent speeches where he said "Go to the other end of the world, in the far Asia, and say you're French. You'll see the eye of the other sparkle with more stars than there are on the European flag"
The image of Europe has considerably suffered from the French arrogance, and only arrogance can come from such a general attitude, even if the holder of these beliefs is well-intended. |
I agree. As an outsider, de Villepin looks like a very bad choice. The French voters just kicked us in the nuts because they felt like they were losing control to unelected elites in Brussels, so... let's appoint an unelected elite as prime minister in Paris. 
The only saving grace is that de Villepin is a good public speaker. But unless he's going to be a figurehead, he needs to know how to use brass knuckles for politics at that level.
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31-05-2005 21:53
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