01-06-2005 11:30									#31
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And to show why more but smaller warheads are better, if you were to drop the same 20,000 MT in the same way, but this time use 1000 20 MT bombs and not 20,000 1 MT bombs, the area you damage to this degree measures 8,820,000 Sq Km, or about 39% of the area using the smaller bombs.

This is an illustration why all the nuclear powers moved to smaller waheads they could deliver in a wider pattern. Same Magetonage, but very different areas affected.

	01-06-2005 11:34									#32
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Cool links GePap

The nuclear weapons have been off the radar for the past 15 years. It is still quietly and expensively being maintained.

What the hell do we need 5000 nukes for though??

What I thought was cool was that they could recycle the rockets and use them to launch things into space, or use them as conventional missles.

	01-06-2005 11:37									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Ted, I didn't get into Europa Universalis though...did you? GePap, like I said, what about the radiation? 'Mars Attacks' is on TBS, just by chance.

A 1 MT bomb sends out immdiately lethal radiation out to 2.3 km;s, or an area of 17 Sq Km, and causes acute radiation syndrome up to 2.9 Km's, or 26.4 Sq Kt. So within that area we devastated, only a total of 26,400 Sq. Km would die instantly of the radiation poisoning.

The fallout would certainly spread and cover vast areas. But look at the arae under Chernobyl- its not a "lifeless desert", life is there, certainly its not healthy to be there, and as I said, the risks of birth defects, cancer and being sterile are very high, but the fact is much of life is more resiliant than us.

So no, earth would not be a lifeless desert.

You would certainly do a lot to kill most human beings and other big animals, but life would soldier on.

And as I said, if aliens can cross the radioactively hazardous regions of interstellar space, they must have some great radiation shielding.

More on nuclear fall out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout

	01-06-2005 11:41									#34
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The destruction of humanity would cause the locust brain suckers to leave for lack of food.

	01-06-2005 11:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The destruction of humanity would cause the locust brain suckers to leave for lack of ffod.

Fine, but then we lose anyways, don;t we.

Dead at their hands, or ours....

	01-06-2005 11:43									#36
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Well no, they set up nests and start harvesting humans. That would go on forever.

	01-06-2005 11:47									#37
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Well, honestly then, as a species, the first outcome is better, because human beings stay around longer.

Think of it this way, we eact chickens, but there are more chickens today than there have EVER been. Thanks to our appetite for chicken, that species is secure.

So, which is better, and end of humanity, or humanity continuing, but as a food source?

In a cold, biological level, better to be cattle than dead.

	01-06-2005 11:50									#38
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uh.... lancer?

i wouldn't need such an extreme situation. i'd do it simply to hasten mankind's extinction.

aliens using humans for brain food.

	01-06-2005 11:50									#39
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Some humans live on in underground shelters.

	01-06-2005 12:02									#40
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I haven't seen anybody mentioning the scenario is extremely improbable.

Beings evolved on another world is highly unlikely to have a taste of our flesh, let alone our brains. We may even be poisionous to them.

	01-06-2005 12:03									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, I did some little math. If you take the Wikipedia site for the blast effects, you find that each 1 MT bomb can, depending on local conditions, cause 1st Degree burns out to 19 Km's, and moderate building damage out to 17 Kms. That works out to about 907 Sq Km of space at risk of moderate building damage, and 1133 Sq Km at risk of 1st degree burns. Again, actual conditions vary. So, lets imagine we had 20,000 1 MT bombs, and we were to set them all equadistand from each other over the whole world's land mass (none over water). If we were to set them all off, we would cause the level of damage I spoke about above to 22,660,000 Sq km. Certainly a vast area, or about 15.2% of the 148,940,000 Sq Km. of the world's land area. I have no doubt that would be enough to wipe out human civilization. But turn the world into a lifeless desert? Hardly.

And after all the foilage not vaporized has burned? And after the rest was deprived of light for an extended period of time? How much of the surface could not be called a desert then?

	01-06-2005 12:05									#42
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You're causing first degree burns over 10% of the land surface of the Earth.

You think anything else survives even if it doesn't get directly scorched?

	01-06-2005 12:07									#43
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"I haven't seen anybody mentioning the scenario is extremely improbable.

Beings evolved on another world is highly unlikely to have a taste of our flesh, let alone our brains. We may even be poisionous to them."

They eat brains. That's what they eat. Brains. Got it?

	01-06-2005 12:09									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer They eat brains. That's what they eat. Brains. Got it?

Yeah, but our brains are going to taste different from the Qulanntx from Beta Lyrae III.

	01-06-2005 12:10									#45
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UR has a serious lack of imagination if he thinks our brains could not taste better than those of the Qulanntx from Beta Lyrae III.

	01-06-2005 12:11									#46
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"Yeah, but our brains are going to taste different from the Qulanntx from Beta Lyrae III. "

It really depends on your choice of spices. I'm thinking a sour cream and onion sauce lightly salted.

	01-06-2005 12:12									#47
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We're the Baskin Robins of brains.

Get your libertarian brains, your republican brains, your liberal brains...

We even have the brains of humans who eat brains.

53 flavours be damned!

	01-06-2005 12:14									#48
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Repubilan brains can be a bit too rich imo.

	01-06-2005 12:15									#49
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The poor might find them nutritious.

	01-06-2005 12:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I guess I'm bored.

I saw the exact same scenario on TV last year. It was on something like Outer Limits or Twilight Zone. Maybe you saw it too?

	01-06-2005 12:29									#51
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"To serve man...it's a COOKBOOK!"

	01-06-2005 12:37									#52
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I saw it when it first came out.

	01-06-2005 13:13									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A 1 MT bomb sends out immdiately lethal radiation out to 2.3 km;s, or an area of 17 Sq Km, and causes acute radiation syndrome up to 2.9 Km's, or 26.4 Sq Kt. So within that area we devastated, only a total of 26,400 Sq. Km would die instantly of the radiation poisoning. The fallout would certainly spread and cover vast areas. But look at the arae under Chernobyl- its not a "lifeless desert", life is there, certainly its not healthy to be there, and as I said, the risks of birth defects, cancer and being sterile are very high, but the fact is much of life is more resiliant than us. So no, earth would not be a lifeless desert. You would certainly do a lot to kill most human beings and other big animals, but life would soldier on. And as I said, if aliens can cross the radioactively hazardous regions of interstellar space, they must have some great radiation shielding. More on nuclear fall out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fallout

Also consider that 20% is tundra, 20% is desert, 20% is mountain. How many bombs aimed at Greenland?

Congratulations, you've just directly incinerated over 25% of what is habitable, with the rest of the arable land soon to burn.

Have a drink and pat yourself on the back.

	01-06-2005 13:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I saw it when it first came out.

I liked how it ended.

	01-06-2005 16:15									#55
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Sorry, but you could not really "nuke" the icecaps, at least not really with surface blasts.

Why not? We used to wipe out icebergs by dropping bombs on them.

quote: As for "global warming spiral", all the dust thrown up by the big Megaton explosions would work to counteract that.

If you hit the ice, not much dust will go up.

	01-06-2005 16:34									#56
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quote: Why not? We used to wipe out icebergs by dropping bombs on them

that is because a iceberg will be in gulfed or scattered by a bomb...there isnt a nuke big enough to crack i dunno how many meter thick ice or engulf the entire north/south pole)...sure you will melt the top of a bit...but above ground nukes arent know for there crater making ability...it is the blastwave that levels everything on the ground...but nothing really under it...

	01-06-2005 17:07									#57
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IIRC the idea behind "nuclear winter" was that the collective debris thrown up into the higher levels of the atmosphere from the effects of 20,000+ nukes would block out enough sunlight to lower the Earth's surface temperature sufficiently to cause a protracted winter over virtually the entire globe. The offending debris would come from cities, forests and fields ignited by the bombs.

I'd like to point out that these aliens had better be excessively numerous and bullet-proof. The US alone has an arsenal in private hands estimated at 200 million+ firearms.

	01-06-2005 17:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword quote: Why not? We used to wipe out icebergs by dropping bombs on them that is because a iceberg will be in gulfed or scattered by a bomb...

Nope, we dropped incendiaries and melted the things through.

	01-06-2005 17:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And after all the foilage not vaporized has burned? And after the rest was deprived of light for an extended period of time? How much of the surface could not be called a desert then?

First of all, those results are for "ideal" conditions- ie, the weather is sunny, the land is flat. If the weather is bad, or the land contourted the way damage occurs differs, and ususally lessened. So those specs are worst case scenerios.

Second, heat that can give 1st Degree burns does NOT = heat that can burn forests. Certainly areas closer to the blats will have caught on fire, thought the intensity and wether they spread will depend on local conditions.

	01-06-2005 17:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Also consider that 20% is tundra, 20% is desert, 20% is mountain. How many bombs aimed at Greenland? Congratulations, you've just directly incinerated over 25% of what is habitable, with the rest of the arable land soon to burn. Have a drink and pat yourself on the back.

I will, having done something to hold back the hysteria.

I doubt at the very height of the cold war there were a combined 20,000 MT of nuclear bombs out there.

The proposition was to turn the Earth into a lifeless desert- in that case, the point would be to do as much damage to as wide an area as possible. So yes, in that example you are dropping bombs on unpopulated areas simply to destroy nature. We have some idea that even doing this would not leave the earth a lifeless desert. Certainly it would make it a much harder place to inhabit for human beings and most large animals, bu for life itself?

In an actual nuclear war, various locales would have been hit repeatedly and in ways to insure maximum destruction, so that the areas of total building damage somewhat overlapped. That would have meant the utter obliteration of large urban centers, with less damage to outlying areas than under the scenerio I posted.

Lets be clear- a total nuclear war would do horrific damage to human civilization. BUt lets cut the hyperbole about Planet Earth. Lets be thankful we still don't have the power to "blow it up".