01-06-2005 09:11									#1
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They come in ships and start blasting everything with ray guns, then sucking the brains of the dead as well as the living. They set up nests and start raising humans for brain food. You are the president. Your military has been smashed, your people are being rounded up and the men are forced to impregnate women before having thier brains sucked out and bodies discarded.

The only option that is left, the final chance for mankind's freedom, is to nuke the world into a radioactive desert, useless to the aliens, and trying to survive based underground for a few thousand years. The aliens would likely survive due to their tech, but our planet would be useless to them. They would have no reason to stay. Humanity itself might not survive...

Do you take this option even though it would kill anyone still alive on the surface?

	01-06-2005 09:12									#2
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OMG!!!!!

TeH commie locusts!!!!!!!!!!!!

	01-06-2005 09:13									#3
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I guess I'm bored.

	01-06-2005 09:41									#4
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Only problem is that all the nukes in all the arsenals of the world would not do enough damage to make the Earth unlivable nor even undesireable.

	01-06-2005 09:43									#5
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Nuke the icecaps and Amazonia and start teh great unstoppable global warming spiral of death.

	01-06-2005 09:45									#6
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Sorry, but you could not really "nuke" the icecaps, at least not really with surface blasts.

As for "global warming spiral", all the dust thrown up by the big Megaton explosions would work to counteract that.

	01-06-2005 09:48									#7
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"Only problem is that all the nukes in all the arsenals of the world would not do enough damage to make the Earth unlivable nor even undesireable."

This goes against everything I've ever heard and believed.

"Nuke the icecaps and Amazonia and start teh great unstoppable global warming spiral of death."

Same difference, pretty much.

I considered that the radiation would make the world unlivable for a reasonable sized food source that would make it worth the aliens hanging around.

	01-06-2005 09:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer This goes against everything I've ever heard and believed. .

Well, then you have been grossly missinformed.

First of all, strategic nuclear arsenals today are much smaller than before, and few if any of the big multimegaton monsters are left behind-only so many 20+ Megaton weapons were made. It would take one of these huge nukes to really scar the Earth itself and a significant area. (by that I mean several dozen square miles, of the millions of square miles that cover the earth's landmasses).

But just think of the two cities that were nuked- Hiroshima hardly became a desert, now did it? Neither did Nagasaki.

And nukes were made to attack human settlements, which cover only a small portion of the earth's landmass itself.

Overall people have a very imaginative sense of what most nukes would do. What they imagine is the effects of the most gargantuan weapons, specifically the least common.

	01-06-2005 10:16									#9
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"First of all, strategic nuclear arsenals today are much smaller than before, and few if any of the big multimegaton monsters are left behind-only so many 20+ Megaton weapons were made. It would take one of these huge nukes to really scar the Earth itself and a significant area. (by that I mean several dozen square miles, of the millions of square miles that cover the earth's landmasses)."

There are still plenty of nukes in the arsenals of the US, Russia, some in China and the other, smaller nuke powers...France, GB, India, Pak... My understanding is that the persistant radiation would be the problem for human survival, not the damage on the ground.


"But just think of the two cities that were nuked- Hiroshima hardly became a desert, now did it? Neither did Nagasaki. "

These were tiny 20 kt mininukes by today's standard.

"Overall people have a very imaginative sense of what most nukes would do. What they imagine is the effects of the most gargantuan weapons, specifically the least common."

I imagine that using a significant portion of just the nukes of the US would create enough radiation to exterminate all exposed human life.

	01-06-2005 10:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As for "global warming spiral", all the dust thrown up by the big Megaton explosions would work to counteract that.

If you were nuking ice, then all the dust would be water, and would contribute to that.

	01-06-2005 10:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer There are still plenty of nukes in the arsenals of the US, Russia, some in China and the other, smaller nuke powers...France, GB, India, Pak... My understanding is that the persistant radiation would be the problem for human survival, not the damage on the ground.

Only the declared 5 powers ever got to thermonuclear devices, and even then, most of theirs are in the mid hundred kiloton range. Its unlikely that Israel, Pakistan, and India have any nukes more than say 3 times the size of the Hiroshima bomb.

You do more damage by launching multiple 300 KT attacks on a city spaced out to maximize the area in the 90% effectiveness range than dropping one single large bomb, since there is a lower return as bombs get bigger.

quote: These were tiny 20 kt mininukes by today's standard.

Yes, but you are talking radiation. Actually, thermonuclear bombs are "cleaner" than simple fission devices. The most dangerous radiation, simply because it hangs around, is alpha and beta radiation, which is made up of heavier particles. You get a higher percentage of those heavy radioisotopes form a purely fission bomb. The high heat of a hydrogen bomb emits less of these as a percentage of its power.

quote: I imagine that using a significant portion of just the nukes of the US would create enough radiation to exterminate all exposed human life.

Actually, no, they would not.

You might very significantly increase the rates of cancer and birth defects and the number of sterile individuals, but you would get far more radiation from an exposed nuclear core than a bomb. So making sure all the nuke plants of the world melted down would probably give you more radioation, in terms of making sure a radiactive cloud spread far and wide.

The thing is, there is lots of life that can take much more radiation than us.

And in the end, if some species found out a way to cross the voids of space, the probably have VERY good radiation shielding.

	01-06-2005 10:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, then you have been grossly missinformed. First of all, strategic nuclear arsenals today are much smaller than before, and few if any of the big multimegaton monsters are left behind-only so many 20+ Megaton weapons were made. It would take one of these huge nukes to really scar the Earth itself and a significant area. (by that I mean several dozen square miles, of the millions of square miles that cover the earth's landmasses). But just think of the two cities that were nuked- Hiroshima hardly became a desert, now did it? Neither did Nagasaki. And nukes were made to attack human settlements, which cover only a small portion of the earth's landmass itself. Overall people have a very imaginative sense of what most nukes would do. What they imagine is the effects of the most gargantuan weapons, specifically the least common.

Where do I buy an ass so big to pull **** like that out of?

	01-06-2005 10:37									#13
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How many classes on the theories of nuclear war have you taken?

You are certainly one of those people who have shown a rather magical imagination as to the global effects of a nuclear device.

	01-06-2005 10:38									#14
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GePap, I hope you're right.

	01-06-2005 10:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How many classes on the theories of nuclear war have you taken? You are certainly one of those people who have shown a rather magical imagination as to the global effects of a nuclear device.

You took a night class, and you are an expert on nuclear warfare?

Tell us how many warheads the US has stockpiled, and of what magnitude they are.

	01-06-2005 10:52									#16
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I would not do it. What makes you think that they just wouldn't come back in 1,000 years once humans once again get top-side?

	01-06-2005 10:53									#17
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Not "night class", class with professor who has taught at the air force academy.

First, here is a wikipedia link, but its pretty good for explaining the effects of a nuclear blast:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_explosion

Here is a detailed list of the current US nuclear arsenal:

http://www.thebulletin.org/article_..._ofn=jf05norris

The fine people at this publication can also give data on all nuclear arsenals.

http://www.thebulletin.org/nuclear_weapons_data/

Here is some slightly outdated info on US warheads. The same site gives you data on all the other nuclear players. While the data is a few years old, its difficult to assume that anyone has been putting bigger warheads on their missiles.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa...s/Allbombs.html

	01-06-2005 10:55									#18
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"I would not do it. What makes you think that they just wouldn't come back in 1,000 years once humans once again get top-side?"

Because we would have shown our willingness to destroy ourselves to live free.

	01-06-2005 10:56									#19
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The "these are incredibly crazy fvckers, and they don't taste that good either" factor?

Hmmm...

	01-06-2005 10:58									#20
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Liberty or death...

	01-06-2005 11:00									#21
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GePap, any of those links help you draw the conclusion that the radiation produced wouldn't kill off humanity?

	01-06-2005 11:05									#22
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Yep, 500 and some ICBMs, plus subs and bombers, sure makes me feel safe.

	01-06-2005 11:09									#23
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notyoueither, would you use them under the premise of the thread?

	01-06-2005 11:11									#24
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In a New York minute.

	01-06-2005 11:19									#26
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This scenario sounds like the closing rounds of Rise of Nations.

That damn AI throws around nukes about as often as Britney throws in new boobs.

	01-06-2005 11:20									#27
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Isn't that real time? Or stop time or something? No, that was Europa Universalis. What's RON?

	01-06-2005 11:25									#28
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Yeah, Rise of Nations is real time

It's a really good game, I was surprised at how much I liked it.

It's civ but real time.

Highly addictive

	01-06-2005 11:25									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer GePap, any of those links help you draw the conclusion that the radiation produced wouldn't kill off humanity?

Well, I did some little math.

If you take the Wikipedia site for the blast effects, you find that each 1 MT bomb can, depending on local conditions, cause 1st Degree burns out to 19 Km's, and moderate building damage out to 17 Kms.

That works out to about 907 Sq Km of space at risk of moderate building damage, and 1133 Sq Km at risk of 1st degree burns. Again, actual conditions vary.

So, lets imagine we had 20,000 1 MT bombs, and we were to set them all equadistand from each other over the whole world's land mass (none over water). If we were to set them all off, we would cause the level of damage I spoke about above to 22,660,000 Sq km. Certainly a vast area, or about 15.2% of the 148,940,000 Sq Km. of the world's land area.

I have no doubt that would be enough to wipe out human civilization. But turn the world into a lifeless desert? Hardly.

	01-06-2005 11:30									#30
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Ted, I didn't get into Europa Universalis though...did you?

GePap, like I said, what about the radiation?

'Mars Attacks' is on TBS, just by chance.