01-06-2005 20:48									#31
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Don´t believe the radio, you can vote blank as a protest vote. People just assume that´s it either for or against but you "can" vote blank!

You just have to ask the people at polling station , show your voting card and say that you want to vote blank. They´ll know what to do.

Last edited by CapTVK on 01-06-2005 at 20:58

	01-06-2005 20:54									#32
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As somebody from a superstate, I think a superstate would be good for Europe. But I think this constitution is, objectively speaking, awful.

It's interesting to hear Dutch views about this.

	01-06-2005 21:15									#33
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The problem with this poll is that in the campaign leading up to it not a single minute was spent on actually discussing the contents of the constitution. Rather than "against the constitution" vs "for the constitution", it was all "against the EU" vs "against against the EU" (or "these are not the issues we should be talking about, but they're all we're talking about anyway").

That almost makes me feel ashamed to vote Nee, because I don't want to be associated with those idiots claiming that this is a good opportunity to keep Turkey out, to get the Guilder back or to do something about the bullfights in Spain But it's a crappy treaty that will only hurt Europe in the long run, so I'm happy to report I voted Nee anyway

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I think it's a little surrealistic to expect the biggest nations of europe not act like the biggest nations of europe. That's democracy.

The ironic thing is that the Dutch people want disproportionately more power for countries with smaller populations because they think that that would give our country more power. But in reality the Netherlands is the 6th largest country in the EU in terms of population, we would likely only lose from power from such measures

	01-06-2005 21:20									#34
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I wish there was a: "Please take all responsibility from the dutch voters away and give it to the germans" button or something, since we dutch surely aren't good voters.

	01-06-2005 21:22									#35
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ah, democacy at work, i see ...

	01-06-2005 21:22									#36
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You know, that happened once, but it didn't go over very well

	01-06-2005 22:18									#37
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Won't work. My local radio says that they have to press a yes or no button - didn't mention a blank button. (I know it's not yes/no, but couldn't bother to find the right )

This is how it works, a blanco vote is an illegal vote (you don´t choose either yes or no but directly push the "vote" button):

quote: De enige manier om met de computer ongeldig te stemmen is door, in plaats van de kandidaat van een partij, op de blanco knop te drukken. Blanco - en dus ongeldige - stemmen tellen wel mee voor het opkomstcijfer.

	01-06-2005 22:23									#38
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Well, not that it matters anymore, but I voted yes.

Voting "No" would be voting for all the wrong reasons. The Constititution has nothing to do with a yes or no to Turkey, nothing with the fact we've been ****ed by the introduction of the Euro, nothing with being happy or not
with our government and nothing with giving up our abortion, cannabis and euthanasia laws.

Anyways, everything that keeps the French and Germans from shooting at each other is a good thing

	01-06-2005 22:23									#39
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Locutus:

Do you think the issues mentioned in the BBC article, and those I mentioned in my second post, accurately reflect the Dutch debate?

	01-06-2005 22:24									#40
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Cybershy, Locutus you´re the only Dutch posters at the moment here. Will you help?

	01-06-2005 22:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Anyways, everything that keeps the French and Germans from shooting at each other is a good thing

Well, this constitution has nothing to do with the peace between the French and the Germans either

	01-06-2005 22:30									#42
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Let's wait

	01-06-2005 22:31									#43
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CapTVK: I think much people have actually voted blank today.
On the radio they were talking all day about how people couldn't find the blank-vote button and complained about that.
It wouldn't be such a big radio issue if not much people were trying to vote blank.

I have voted "yes" (I'm actually apparantly in the same camp as my fellow poly-friends! Usually I'm in opposite to you guys strange days these days )

I think we may be surprised that the end result actually may be a "yes"!

	01-06-2005 22:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I think we may be surprised that the end result actually may be a "yes"!

I was seriously fearing such an outcome during the French referendum day. My town voted exceedingly for the Oui. The Non vote came from social categories that are largely underrepresented in my town, as well as on 'Poly

	01-06-2005 22:36									#45
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Well, in a way it does. It goes all the way back to 1950´s when France their coal and iron supplies under combined control. This treaty has a link with history.

	01-06-2005 22:42									#46
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Well, in a way it does. It goes all the way back to 1950´s when France their coal and iron supplies under combined control. This treaty has a link with history.

The European construction is definitely the factor that makes any European war unlikely in the forseeable future But the question asked by this constitution is not whether the European construction is a good idea (it undoubtedly is), but whether we want the constitution's particular guidelines to lead the future of Europe for the coming decades.

If the constitution dies, the European construction will continue nonetheless, and so will European peace.

	01-06-2005 22:49									#47
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy CapTVK: I think much people have actually voted blank today. On the radio they were talking all day about how people couldn't find the blank-vote button and complained about that. It wouldn't be such a big radio issue if not much people were trying to vote blank. I have voted "yes" (I'm actually apparantly in the same camp as my fellow poly-friends! Usually I'm in opposite to you guys strange days these days ) I think we may be surprised that the end result actually may be a "yes"!

I also voted yes*. I was up real early today (yesterday I decided to take on this "Nice+ monster" and got through it around 3´ o clock in the morning. There are a lot of problems facing the EU (not just globalisation) and we can only handle this together. Crappy EU treaty or not, we can always improve it later on. Also, personally I see a "no" as a vote of betrayal to the new EU members in Eastern Europe. Just at the moment they´ve become offical members we slam the door in their faces. Nice going....


*The idea about voting blanco came about later while discussing this at the office. But it seems a lot of my fellow countrymen are way ahead of me

	01-06-2005 22:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Crappy EU treaty or not, we can always improve it later on.

You mean like this?

quote: Article IV-443 Ordinary revision procedure 1. The government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of this Treaty. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified. 2. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States as provided for in paragraph 3. The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of reference for a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States. 3. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to this Treaty. The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. 4. If, two years after the signature of the treaty amending this Treaty, four fifths of the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be referred to the European Council.

	01-06-2005 22:56									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If the constitution dies, the European construction will continue nonetheless, and so will European peace.

I hope so.

But I find the nationalistic tones in the debate annoying. The cliches about those from the east (Poles, whatever) who may ruin our job market etc....Of course there is a certain economical background to this, which must be discussed, but IMO the debate also has also ingredients of national arrogance since it paints some ugly stereotypes (and I don't mean only France, I hear similar stuff in Gemany, despite there wasn't a referendum here).

	01-06-2005 23:01									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Voting "No" would be voting for all the wrong reasons.

Erm... doesn't that kind of depend on those reasons, not on the vote itself?

I voted No exactly because I believe that *that* is the most effective way to keep the French and Germanas from shooting at each other

I admit it's highly embarrassing that that puts me in the same camp as all those idiots like Wilders & Co, but surely I shouldn't change my vote just because of the nonsensical anti-EU slander campaign of those people?

	01-06-2005 23:04									#51
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The fact that you're in the same camp as all idiots overhere in The Netherlands should've opened your eyes

	01-06-2005 23:05									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue My main gripe with EU is the CAP. I think they should get rid of it as a show of goodwill to the world. It encourages dumping of cheap produce on the 3rd World, and it eats up too much of the budget. France won't like it but, they're now in the slow lane of a multispeed europe as well and they have lost an awful lot of power due to the NON vote. Time to take advantage and get rid of that bloated thing.

Food sovereignty

	01-06-2005 23:08									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Locutus: Do you think the issues mentioned in the BBC article, and those I mentioned in my second post, accurately reflect the Dutch debate?

Essentially, that's probably a pretty fair summary of it, yes. It's fear of identity loss, combined with just a protest vote -- against the government, against the EU, against the bad economy, against everything that's wrong in life. The same things we used to blame on the Germans we now blame on the Constitution and the EU

It's purely an emotional vote for most people: for the Nee camp because of reasons cited above, while the Ja camp mostly votes against the Nee camp -- most of them don't know anything about the details of the constitution either. The government says it's good for Europe, so it must be...

	01-06-2005 23:26									#54
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Spiffor,

Hey stranger things can happen, i´ve seen the EU institutions closeby and they actually do some good work


Btw,
I also apologize for my outburst past sunday. I should explain why. At the place I work we also have international training course program where we also see people from Eastern Europe. When they come here we also organize some social events to get to know each other (play a few games, drink etc...). Quite fun and they enjoyed themselves as well.

So I when saw France voted no I felt France had left them down. I felt France as a founding member had left everybody down. I had seen the polls and knew where it was going but in my heart i had kept that small thinge of hope. At the time it happened I was quite angry, now I´m just a little sad . But I know i must go forward...

Last edited by CapTVK on 01-06-2005 at 23:34

	02-06-2005 00:18									#55
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no wins, 63-37.

	02-06-2005 00:32									#56
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Ouch...

	02-06-2005 00:36									#57
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Oof. High turnout too.

Stick a fork in this one. It's done.

	02-06-2005 00:39									#58
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Still, with a turnout of ~60%, it would seem even more people didn't care than those who opposed it.

	02-06-2005 00:40									#59
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Maybe we should hand over the con to Paradox Games. They patch it a few dozen times and everything will be fine.

	02-06-2005 01:05									#60
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Maybe we should hand over the con to Paradox Games. They patch it a few dozen times and everything will be fine.

EU V1.8?

or EU2?