01-06-2005 15:57									#1
	Netherlands to vote Nee on the European Constitution Increase Your PM Length

@Mods: I think the other EU-constitution thread is specific to France. The debate in the Netherlands is a completely different beast to the French one. So, please don't merge the threads

From the BBC:

quote: Dutch vote on Europe constitution People in the Netherlands are voting on the European Union constitution, just three days after a "No" vote plunged France into crisis. Early reports suggest voting has been brisk so far among the country's 11.6 million voters. The Dutch prime minister appealed to the nation to back the treaty but polls predict 60% of voters will oppose it. Many who intend to vote "No" share their European neighbour's fears about EU expansion and a loss of identity. The result is non-binding, but PM Jan Peter Balkenende has agreed to abide by it. 'Not democratic enough' Voting began at 0730 local time (0530 GMT) on Wednesday. Results are expected two hours after polls close at 2100. DUTCH REFERENDUM "Yes" camp Christian Democrats (CDA), largest government party, plus coalition partners VVD and D66 Labour (PVDA) and Green Left opposition parties "No" camp Right-wing Pim Fortuyn party Socialist Party ChristienUnie and SGP, Christian parties The BBC News website's Stephen Mulvey in Amsterdam says he saw large numbers of people voting early, and a steady trickle throughout the morning. The mood has been generally calm, with little evidence of political activity outside polling stations, he says. "I voted 'No'. I believe the current treaty is not democratic enough," Amsterdam voter Joris Kampmeijer, 28, told AFP news agency. "I think it's a good thing if there's a strong Europe," "Yes" voter Jaena Padberg told AP at a community school in the city. "It's good that our rights will be secured." Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende voted at his local polling station near Rotterdam. "The future of the Netherlands is in Europe," he said on Dutch television late on Tuesday. "I believe a 'No' vote is not in the interest of the Netherlands, not of Europe." Discontent Correspondents say that a second vote against the constitution could create a snowball effect throughout the bloc. The treaty - which aims to streamline EU institutions following the admission of 10 new members - has to be approved by all 25 member states before it can take effect. In France, the decisive rejection of the document forced President Jacques Chirac to remove his prime minister. He replaced Jean-Pierre Raffarin with Dominique de Villepin in a bid to prove he had listened and responded to voters' discontent. In the Netherlands, any rejection of the constitution is unlikely to have the same impact as the Dutch vote is non-binding. Interference But the BBC's Geraldine Coughlan in The Hague says voters are unhappy about higher prices since the euro and discontented with the centre-right government. Many also feel threatened by what they see as a superstate that will interfere with liberal policies such as those on gay marriage and euthanasia. Others disagree with the swift enlargement of the EU, and oppose the possible inclusion of Turkey. However, government and major opposition parties, making up 80% of the country's MPs, support the draft constitution in the belief that it will enhance Dutch influence in Europe.

Looks like a massive "Nee" will happen in Netherlands.

	01-06-2005 16:00									#2
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What is your idea how the Eu should proceed - back to the drawing board, totally new con....or back to Nice, with some of the usual bureaucratic additions....

	01-06-2005 16:03									#3
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yeah to bad...to many people will vote Nee because they dont know what is in the constitution...this is not something so cleary were you can vote yes or no on...like a chosen mayor is easy you want it or you dont want it...but this constitution has SO MANY things in it that it is hard to be for or against everything....so that is way a lot of people will vote nee...that and last week we heard that the guilder was valued wrong against the euro...a lot of people (stupidly) believe that is way we right no dont have a strong economy and a big inflation...

	01-06-2005 16:07									#4
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I haven't found any genuinely Dutch news source in English, and thus I have to rely on foreign press to understand the Dutch vote. According to my experience, the foreign press is completely unable to understand the nuances of the vote.

So, 'Poly Dutchmen, could you please tell me if the following is true? (please also indicate if you vote yes or no )

The main issue of the Nee campaign is the fear of identity loss. The Nee voters fear that Netherlands become an irrelevant province in the EU-Superstate, from which Turkish workers will pour.

There is a general fear of everything foreign ever since Pim Fortuyn's and Theo van Gogh's assassinations. The public opinion wants to "go back to fundamentals", i.e the nation State.

Economically, the Dutch gripe about the Euro (high prices, under-evaluation of the Gulden) and the high net contributions to the EU. The French issue against the EU's free-marketeer policies is nowhere to be seen.

The referendum will be fueled by discontent toward the current government, but not overly so.

	01-06-2005 16:09									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword but this constitution has SO MANY things in it that it is hard to be for or against everything

Yet, this is what a ratification is for. The treaty has been negociated for years, and has found its definitive form last autumn in Rome. Every country must now ratify it, i.e. either accept everything, or reject everything.

	01-06-2005 16:17									#6
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quote: The main issue of the Nee campaign is the fear of identity loss. The Nee voters fear that Netherlands become an irrelevant province in the EU-Superstate, from which Turkish workers will pour

a stupid myth in my eyes fueled by

pim portuyn (assisnated by a left wing tree hugger)
ayan hirsi ali (a woman who has fallen of her muslim fate and is now against every thing muslim, in hiding because of a lot of death threats (muslims mostly))
Geert Wilders (a guy that tries to be the next pim portuyn. also in hiding because of a lot of death threats (muslims mostly))

quote: There is a general fear of everything foreign ever since Pim Fortuyn's and Theo van Gogh's assassinations. The public opinion wants to "go back to fundamentals", i.e the nation State.

fear for foreigners is also a issue one i didnt understand until i most to the west...i never had any problem with minorities and will never have but the problem here is that they form there own little countries...there is no mixing of cultures anymore...mostly because of fanatics from both sides

quote: Economically, the Dutch gripe about the Euro (high prices, under-evaluation of the Gulden) and the high net contributions to the EU. The French issue against the EU's free-marketeer policies is nowhere to be seen.

it is an issue but read my post above

quote: The referendum will be fueled by discontent toward the current government, but not overly so.

nobody is really happy with the government right now but i dont think that is the reason to vote no. most of the opposition parties are also in favor of it


after work i will go and vote yes. but i also have my doubts and i hope that the netherlands can still be the utopia of Free speech, paid sex and legal drugs

	01-06-2005 16:19									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yet, this is what a ratification is for. The treaty has been negociated for years, and has found its definitive form last autumn in Rome. Every country must now ratify it, i.e. either accept everything, or reject everything.

yes i understand that but for joe average it is way to confusing...so you ask people that know something about it...and some say yes because of X and some say no because of Y...that just adds to the confusing...and when in doubt people will tend to not do something hence the big NO vote

	01-06-2005 16:20									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro What is your idea how the Eu should proceed - back to the drawing board, totally new con....or back to Nice, with some of the usual bureaucratic additions....

I can't make a good prognosis before the next European Council, in two weeks. The constitution might well be killed June 16-17, if Blair convinces his European partners to stop the ratification process (the only way for Blair to avoid a suicidal referendum is for the constitution to be given up before the UK has to ratify).

If the ratification process continues unabated until fall 2006, I think the European Council will understand that it will be impossible to have the treaty be accepted in new referenda (especially in France, but I believe in the Netherlands and the UK as well). They'll have to get back to the drawing board. Simply because the EU is way too unwieldy under Nice rules.

The New convention should quickly understand (in 2007-2008) that it is impossible to find a compromise that will have both the French and the English to vote Yes. This is why I think the two-tier Europe will stop being a mere hypothesis, but that it'll become the only solution.

	01-06-2005 16:23									#9
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Thanks for the replies DBTS

	01-06-2005 16:28									#10
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I think the idea of a European superstate is never going to happen. It feels like more and more the EU will turn more into what countries like the UK or Poland want from it, i.e. a free trade zone with free movement of goods and to a certain extent people.

My main gripe with EU is the CAP. I think they should get rid of it as a show of goodwill to the world. It encourages dumping of cheap produce on the 3rd World, and it eats up too much of the budget. France won't like it but, they're now in the slow lane of a multispeed europe as well and they have lost an awful lot of power due to the NON vote. Time to take advantage and get rid of that bloated thing.

	01-06-2005 16:29									#11
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the CAP is the subsidy for farmers right?

	01-06-2005 16:29									#12
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Yup

	01-06-2005 16:30									#13
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then to your post of removing the CAP...but to brittish idea of the EU

	01-06-2005 16:33									#14
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Well it's what was the original idea behind the whole thing really. More integration would be nice, but the economies and social policies of all the member state are too radically different for it to work just by writing a fat constitution that noone has read, and fewer people understand. If you have referendums about these things make the constitution a legible document to lay people, and back it up with legislation, instead of sticking all the legislation in the constitution itself.

	01-06-2005 16:34									#15
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Yeah, it is in other words - a weak Europe, with national states that are only there to be minor allies of another superpower.

	01-06-2005 16:56									#16
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The under valuation of the florin is strange, since at this date the Dutch currency was closely linked to the DM.

	01-06-2005 17:02									#17
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So, are there going to be regular votes till the Dutch and French vote for the Constitution, or will there be another Constitutional Convention to hammer out a new Constitution (or amend the rules so that unanonymity isn't required for the Constituion to be accepted)?

	01-06-2005 17:06									#18
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The vote on the convention shows the limit of the consensus method. The aim for too many countries to reach an agreement on too many subjects cannot be achieved.

For instance, the article II-70 on religion is absolutely necessary for certain countries and totally unacceptable for others. No consensus can be reached on such a point because it is a matter of principle which are not only different but opposed.

	01-06-2005 17:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo So, are there going to be regular votes till the Dutch and French vote for the Constitution?

Unlikely. I don't think that any French politician would gamble his whole political carreer on a referendum that is very likely to disgust the people. In my surroundings, even pro-Oui people are disgusted by the idea.

	01-06-2005 17:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue I think the idea of a European superstate is never going to happen. It feels like more and more the EU will turn more into what countries like the UK or Poland want from it, i.e. a free trade zone with free movement of goods and to a certain extent people.

that is exactly what the EU should be about, free trade

	01-06-2005 17:25									#21
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney that is exactly what the EU should be about, free trade

Free trade does not need the EU. It should be dismantled, and a new club could be made by countries agreing on a unity wider than free trade.

	01-06-2005 17:27									#22
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if other countries want to go down the superstate route, then that's cool, but the UK most certainly won't be joining them.

	01-06-2005 17:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney if other countries want to go down the superstate route, then that's cool, but the UK most certainly won't be joining them.

Excellent

If only the European elites had the sense to understand such a simple thing.

	01-06-2005 17:34									#24
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The change that the dutch will vote 'Nee' is 0%
Though the change that it'll become "tegen" which means "against" is about 55%.

We don't vote "Ja" (yes) or "Nee" (no)
We have to vote for or against. (or blanco)

There's not really one reason why much voters vote against.
reasons are:
- they want to give a signal
- they are against the politics of our current administration
- they are against the euro
- they don't want turkey to be a part of the eu
- we're in a low conjuncture and people blame the eu for that
- people blame the eu for everything
- people don't understand the constitution and vote against it for that reason
- people didn't read the constitution and vote against it for that reason
- people hate it that animal rights won't increase in this constitution and vote against it for that reason (eventhough a 'tegen' won't change anything as well)
- dutch people just love it to be 'tegen' in general
- people are afraid the netherlands will be a part of a united states of europe

anyway, the 'tegen' vote has little to do with the constitution. It has everything to do with people having no clue about what's going on. they have on interest in learning what's going on. Don't don't do anything to learn what's going on. But they still blame the politicans for that they don't know and vote against it for that reason.

Yeah, we dutch are really one country filled with crying babies.

I'll vote yes btw 8)

	01-06-2005 17:35									#25
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I mean: I'll vote 'for'
there's no 'yes' option

Oh, this vote shows that referenda are evil b/c people are too dumb too vote for these kinda complex things.

	01-06-2005 19:02									#26
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How much of this is a reaction towards Chirac and French superstatism?

	01-06-2005 19:07									#27
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in the netherlands?

dunno...we dont like chirac or the german PM...we hate it that the 3 big countries french, german and brittian always do everthing there own way...and i think this constitution would limit that but i am not sure about that...

stupid unclear constution and yes i will still vote yes

	01-06-2005 20:25									#28
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I think it's a little surrealistic to expect the biggest nations of europe not act like the biggest nations of europe. That's democracy.

Overhere in The Netherlands Noord Holland, Zuid Holland, Noord Brabant and Utrecht are most important. Drente isn't happy with that.

But it's very very very logical that the biggest countries are most important in the EU. That's something we, inhabitants of the small Netherlands, have to learn to deal with.

Of course another option is listening to the pope, stop using condoms and the pill and breed much children.

No, not 3 childeren or 4. Breed 10 children per familie.
Of course the men should stop listening to the pope ('stop' ) and start to breed with every single woman overhere to make sure that even the single women will breed AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE children.

And then, when there are over 80 million dutch people stuffed in this small little country, and our dikes will stay up for a little, WE WILL RULE EUROPE AND BE ALLMIGHTY AND IMPORTANT

	01-06-2005 20:39									#29
	Vote Blank! Tell everyone Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My god itīs so simple! I have the answer! This way we get a result thatīs suitable for everybody!


VOTE BLANK


Itīs the ultimate protest vote, To all the dutch posters here call or txtmsg everyone and tell to them vote BLANK. Most people will vote either yes or no but if more then 10% vote blank the end result will stand but lose it meaning due to the protest blank vote. If you know any dutch posters tell them to spread the word.





ALL DUTCH POSTERS CALL, MSG, OR EMAIL THEM TO VOTE BLANK SPREAD THE WORD . CALL NOW! THEREīS STILL TIME!

	01-06-2005 20:44									#30
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Won't work. My local radio says that they have to press a yes or no button - didn't mention a blank button. (I know it's not yes/no, but couldn't bother to find the right )