10-06-2005 14:55									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas No, that is not what I said exactly.

I know, I know...

quote: Clearly, this mapping of the globe was done before a major global catastrophe.

Sorry, but I think my comment is valid for this case too (actually I meant it for both!)

My thought is: if before a global catastrophe there is no ice on the Antartica, then this frozen water must be somewhere else! I could really well imagine this "somewhere else" being in the sea, on a liquid form...

So with that much more water in the seas, their level would be much higher, and so the coast would look rather different... QED

Unless the global catastrophe included a "shifting" of Earth rotation axis, which could mean that the ice would have been on another "continent" (which was on the "pole" before the "shifting") which "unfroze" after the catastrophe... And of course, this suppose that the amount of ice before and after didn't change much...

	10-06-2005 18:06									#32
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Yes, I know it's the mythological age, but all the other players are independent cultures with their own myths, which is novel and AFAIK hasn't been done before. Atlantis is just a myth concocted by one of the cultures, and not even a well-developed myth. The Phaecians, Trojans, Amazons, and Hyperboreans all sound more interesting if you're going to be including made-up or exaggerated societies. And that's just the Greeks. The nine worlds of the Norse, the Nibelung, the mythical cities of the children of Dana, there are all sorts of mythical cultures, and most of them include more detail than the scant contents of Timaeus.

Plus FW had an Atlantis scenario which did just fine; there's no point in redoing it. This scenario sounds fun to me insofar as it brings the perceived realities of old cultures to life. Atlantis was just a single story (one which emerged well after the formative periods of true Greek myth, and a looong time after the Egyptians and Babylonians), and only interesting in the way it's reinterpreted by the modern imagination. All we "know" about it is that it was supposedly very big, very powerful, very advanced...and some miscellaneous factoids about social structure. They were organized into small groups of citizens called kleros for the purposes of army recruitment, they were founded by a son of Poseidon named Atlas, and they had bronze-working ability. Plus they built their temples and such out of red, black, and white stones. That's pretty much all the information there is on Atlantis. Microprose's scenario filled in the blanks with the Minoan culture. You're talking about making up a bunch of crap instead. That's not myth.

	11-06-2005 15:25									#33
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Sorry for the delay, though it seems I've entered quite the quagmire which I, as the scenario designer, have to settle.

Ultimately, I do kind of want to incorporate Atlantis in this scenario, despite the points Elok has posted (which are valid, but I do have to make a decision). I was thinking of using the Age of Mythology idea of having the Titans (whom the Greeks didn't actually worship) as the deities of the Atlanteans.

As well, I think the Greek roster of monsters is bigger enough than the others that it could be divided up among the Greeks, Romans, and Atlanteans.

As for Amazons, btw, I plan them to be a 'mercenary' unit that can be gained by befriending Hippolyta.

UDB

	13-06-2005 21:46									#34
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Again, sorry for the delay .

Well, I am set on having an Atlantis. And I would like to pull out all the stops on this civilization, even if it means declaring it unplayable.

I also plan to divide techs into religious techs (those that grant monsters and heroes, as well as improvements and Wonders impossible by Ancient technology) and secular techs (like Iron Working, Pottery, Writing, Trade, Philosophy, etc.). The highest tech on each of those two trees would each be a prerequisite for Ascendency (Future Tech).

I am also open to suggestions for a replacement civilization for the Romans, as they're too close to the Greeks. I may use them, but if anyone has a good alternative, let me know.

UDB

	13-06-2005 22:29									#35
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Pah it doesnt pay to contribute units here, i should have just argued against someone to get attention

	13-06-2005 23:01									#36
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varwnos:

Hi

No one's ignoring you - I think we just got caught up in the discussion.

Uncle Dead Bird:

Instead of Romans how about the Persians?

	13-06-2005 23:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Dead Bird I also plan to divide techs into religious techs (those that grant monsters and heroes, as well as improvements and Wonders impossible by Ancient technology) and secular techs (like Iron Working, Pottery, Writing, Trade, Philosophy, etc.). The highest tech on each of those two trees would each be a prerequisite for Ascendency (Future Tech). UDB

Is that a nod towards Stargate there. Your not going to have the Go'uld invovled are ya'.

	14-06-2005 01:48									#38
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quote: Is that a nod towards Stargate there. Your not going to have the Go'uld invovled are ya'.

No, I just like the idea of divine hegemony the word implies.

@Leonidas: I think maybe Persians could be an excellent idea. They were the first to detail dragons in their myth to any significant detail, after all. Even Chinese myth was pretty nebulous on those creatures for a long while.

@varwnos: I would appreciate any units you could contribute. You're not being ignored; things just kind of got hairy here for a while. Seems to have calmed down now.

UDB

	14-06-2005 02:22									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas So true. But what is really interesting are the events and people that were involved with the Great Library of Alexandria. This Library contained hundreds of thousands of books and scrolls that had been collected from all over the known world. What is interesting is that many of the great Greek thinkers and inventors of the past had either worked at this library or had studied there before they came up with their brilliant ideas. What knowledge did they read about? It was rumoured that that library contained a two volume set of encyclopedias about the world that had been written before a great global flood had occurred. Unfortunately, the Library burned down, and with it went all that priceless information about the past.

Oh dear. It was probably written by the bloke on the grassy knoll just before he hid all that information about aliens landing at Roswell.

	14-06-2005 07:29									#40
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Gareth

	14-06-2005 20:05									#41
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Most of the greek thinkers lived before the library of alexandria was built. Remember that alexandria was founded by alexander ;P Aristotle and everyone before him were dead before that library was erected.

	14-06-2005 21:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Oh dear. It was probably written by the bloke on the grassy knoll just before he hid all that information about aliens landing at Roswell.

And don't forget the nine-foot tall, invisible reptiles!

	15-06-2005 01:19									#43
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the largest collection of half tracks the civ2 community has ever seen, i'm not sure about what else he made, and it's kind of hard to browse through the old forums, since i don't have a time-machine handy

	15-06-2005 01:35									#44
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You havent been there in the old days, Broken Erika Very nice avatar btw

	15-06-2005 09:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas Yet... the fact remains we have an ancient map depicting Antarctica as it looked before it was covered in ice.

Uhm. It looks like a curve. We aren't exactly talking about an interesting shape here.

quote: This means that we have humans mapping the globe before Antartica was covered in ice!

Or humans drawing pretty lines on maps that curve in a manner similar to Antarctica. I don't see anything that can't be explained by a probable coincidence.

quote: 2) Research has shown that Antartica was once much, much warmer than it is now...

Well, yeah. 65 million years ago when it was still part of Gondwanaland, and our ancestors were small furry shrews.

quote: 3) The North Africa Sahara was once covered in lush vegetation. But sudden shifts in climate turned it into a desert.

Yup.

quote: Scientists[sic] have determined that this sudden change in weather (with the resulting ice formations) actually caused a tilting of the earth's natural rotation. This in turn, would cause even more change in weather.

You misspelled "crackpots".

Look, Sahara has undergone desertification since the last Ice Age. And, yes, the Minoan civilization of Crete was largely wiped out by a volcanic eruption. Those are solidly established facts.

There's nothing wrong with romanticizing such catastrophes and following flights of fancy, but please don't pretend that a pretty idea proves itself.

	15-06-2005 16:53									#46
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A lot of this reminds me of the lyrics from the Metal band, Bal-Sagoth.

They have various songs about the Hyperborean empire and pre-ice Antartica.

	15-06-2005 21:35									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas I suppose we could debate the issue of ancient maps forever. It is not my purpose to convince anyone. If nothing else, it merely raises the idea that history may not always reflect what we have read about in our textbooks.

At the risk of kicking it all off again, I've just got to say that some hairbrained conspiracy theorists and mumbo-jumboists writing pieces posted on the internet do not bear serious comparison with academic research undertaken by historians, archaeologists and geologists and which are subject to proper peer review and scrutiny prior to publication in sensible academic publications. I don't want to debate this with you Leonidas, its just a fact.

Now I've got that off my chest, let's leave this thread to the scenario topic shall we?

	15-06-2005 22:50									#48
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Agreed, let's allow UDB to continue his scenario, and put this debate on the back burner...

	16-06-2005 01:50									#49
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There are more valuable maps in the university of Miscatonic. Along with a copy of the necronomicon, by the mad arab Abdul Al-Zahred

(just trying to say something funny)

	16-06-2005 02:20									#50
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it's a mythological age scenario, any idea which culture came up with pegasus?

	16-06-2005 02:46									#51
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[Edit]
Inflammatory post deleted by Boco
[/Edit]

Last edited by Boco on 17-06-2005 at 23:42

	16-06-2005 02:52									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Broken_Erika it's a mythological age scenario, any idea which culture came up with pegasus?

I think that Pegasos was the horse given by zeus to bellerephon, so that he could defeat some monster.

	16-06-2005 03:52									#53
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Allow me to introduce you to the horrors of Kerberos, the three-headed hound of Hades

Attachment: cerberus.bmp
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).

	17-06-2005 11:57									#54
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Sorry for not responding more promptly, people, but I guess I was somewhat intimidated by that vicious exchange. It's safe to come out of my foxhole, I think.

Anyways, great Cerberus there, varwnos. I think I could certainly use it. Any more beasties by anyone would be very well received.

I'd considered using the map from the Fantastic Worlds Atlantis scenario, but that will be a last resort. I'm hoping to come across a better one before then. If need be, I'll just take a giga-Europe map that includes the Middle East (most seem to) and add an Atlantis.

I'd like to add divine intervention events triggered by both researching certain advances and accomplishing certain tasks (slaying monsters or finding valuable relics).

More to come!

UDB

	17-06-2005 13:01									#55
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Did I hear Giga-ancient-world map? As a matter of fact, I have one here ... credit goes to Henrik whose map of "De historibus Europae" I shamelessly edited (excellent scenario, btw). Will that map do the trick?

Attachment: giga ancient eurasia.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	17-06-2005 13:03									#56
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And here you go with the terrain files and the rules file to go with (for the names of the terrains)

Attachment: map fix files.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	17-06-2005 18:18									#57
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Hmph, Boco, I'll have you know that I threw up my hands a while ago. You can't fire me, I quit. Besides, you forgot to invalidate all the times where he began, "I don't want to debate this, but..." and then went on to debate some more. Those entries are disqualified for blatant dishonesty.

Anyway, to stay on topic and avoid a whipping, Pegasus was definitely Greek. It'd be hard to simulate him effectively in Civ2 where there are no air transports though. Maybe a Bellerophon hero unit could be permanently riding him...though Bellerophon's relatively minor, idunno how many unit slots there are in ToT.

And be sure to include the Sirrush for the Babylonians. That thing was freaking sweet. Sort of a leopard-dragon. Yeah.

	17-06-2005 19:36									#58
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greek main heros:

a)homeric:

Odysseys (Odysseus)
Aias (Ajax)
Achilleys (Achilles?)

homeric leaders: Agamemnon, Menelaos

b) non homeric

Herakles (Hercules)
Iason (Jason)
Bellerephon
Perseas
Kastor and Polydeykes (the 'Dioscouroi', iirc)

--Monsters:

Hydra
Medusa
Cyclopses
Stymphalian birds
the nemean lion
Talos, the robotic guardian of Crete
titans and ekatogxeirai (the latter being creatures that have one hundred hands, so probably it wouldnt be possible to draw them for civ2!)
cerberus
harpies (spelling?)
the sphinx (from Oedipous)

-other obvious greek units:

hoplite
trireme
etc etc

-suggestions for non mythological greek leaders

Perikles (Pericles)
Solon 'the athenian' (athenian lawmaker & one of the seven wise men)

...

	17-06-2005 20:30									#59
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[Happy - St. Leo]

Last edited by St Leo on 18-06-2005 at 04:47

	17-06-2005 22:43									#60
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D. L.