07-06-2005 12:40									#91
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Just because say, one percent of female prostitutes are well off with their "occupation" does not mean this justifies what is, in most other cases, inherently sexist and exploitative of poor people by better-off "customers."

Just wondering how you feel about cleaning ladies cleaning a rich person's home.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but what makes prostitution "inherently" sexist AND exploitive. Are you going into a communist argument about work in a capitalist society being exploitive or do you see something special about sex that makes it more deplorable than other disagreeable tasks which are predominantly done by women because richer men don't want to do them.

How about I hire someone to wipe my behind every time I use the bathroom. Seems offensive doesn't it until you find out the behind wiper is a private nurse dealing with a disacbled person.

Don't get me wrong . . . I think prostitution stinks but I am wondering what rationale you are using to reach your conclusion. For me . .. . I view sex between two committed people as special and I don't see how anyone can get that sort of connection from a pro. .. Prostitution can only mean rubbing certain body parts together so it seems empty and shallow to me.... but thats a judegement on the desiarability of the experience and not on the offensiveness of the activity

On that I am a bit torn. Who am I to tell a 20 year old that she shouldn't earn a thousand a night on her back.??

	07-06-2005 13:13									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller have you seen the pornos where the girl is being face ****ed and has to vomit every little bit? you can't tell me that that, and a lot of other things that go on in porno and prostitution, should be a legit job JM

maybe you should tell us why you've seen this porn.

	07-06-2005 13:19									#93
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Just because say, one percent of female prostitutes are well off with their "occupation" does not mean this justifies what is, in most other cases, inherently sexist and exploitative of poor people by better-off "customers."

you don't think it's sexist to tell women what to do with their bodies?

	07-06-2005 14:44									#94
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 I have another Costa Rica question, Oerdin. Just want to know how you made your travel arrangements: did you do it online or with a travel agent? Was it a 3-city package or did you just get air down there and then improvise your lodging as you traveled to each city?

We did everything ourselves without using any travel agents or package deals. Air was through expedia.com on TACA Airlines (Costa Rican national carrier), locations & hotels were decided using Let's Go Travel's Guide to Costa Rica. The eight of us rented two Nissan Pathfinder V6 4x4 and we drove where we wanted to go.

Airline tickets cost $260 per person round trip for a nonstop LAX to San Jose (return flight had a stop over in San Salvador), SUVs cost $505 each per week (that's $101.25 per person; not bad for a week of transportation), rooms averaged $80-$120 per night depending up how fancy we went (all costs divided by eight), food ranged from $2 per meal up to $20 per meal depending up how fancy you wanted ($2 would actually buy you a decent meal of Cassado Con Pollo [beans, rice, salad, & spiced chicken]), though gas is fairly expensive in Costa Rica since the government taxes it heavily. I believe a gallon will run you around $3.50.

I honestly don't see any reason to buy a package deal while traveling in Latin America since the guide books are so complete now days plus the region is so safe. There is also little point in paying a travel agent's fees since online travel sites like Expedia can do everything a good agent can do but don't cost a penny. As long as a traveler doesn't mind reading a $12 guide book and spending a couple of hours with the various travel search engines then a wonderfully relaxing vacation can be had while saving hundreds of dollars which would have gone to travel agents or package touring companies.

	07-06-2005 15:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse But is it true that every girl who approached you was on the game? Maybe its the mighty green card they're after. Or maybe they were just being friendly to the gringo.

I'm sure some of the girls were just friendly locals but it is fairly easy to tell a hooker from a normal girl at a bar. If she says thinbgs like "Hey honey are you looking for company tonight" or starts hissing & whistling to get your attention while you walk down the street or if she grabs you as you walk by then you are reasonably sure. Each bar/club also seems to have an unwritten rule about where the hookers wait. The "good girls" get to use the dance floor and hang out at the bar while the hookers must sit at the outer edges of the bar. I imagine this is so "good girls" don't get confsed to be hookers while the johns still know exactly were to go if they want a roll in the hay.

	07-06-2005 15:45									#96
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fair enough

	07-06-2005 16:06									#97
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Here around, we've got a rise in the numbers of male prostitutes. What does the anti-sexism brigade think of that.

	07-06-2005 17:21									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We did everything ourselves without using any travel agents or package deals. Air was through expedia.com on TACA Airlines (Costa Rican national carrier), locations & hotels were decided using Let's Go Travel's Guide to Costa Rica. The eight of us rented two Nissan Pathfinder V6 4x4 and we drove where we wanted to go.

When I've traveled to Mexico - to Baja and Yucatan - I've been given advice to not drive overland because of the presence of bandits. I ignored that advice in Baja and rented an old VW Beetle and drove up and down the peninsula. No problems.

Did you get a similar warning in Costa Rica?

	07-06-2005 18:19									#99
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My aunt and cousin have been stopped by bandits in Mexico, but some areas are safe, like the Yucatan, and I imagine, Baja.

	07-06-2005 19:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 When I've traveled to Mexico - to Baja and Yucatan - I've been given advice to not drive overland because of the presence of bandits. I ignored that advice in Baja and rented an old VW Beetle and drove up and down the peninsula. No problems. Did you get a similar warning in Costa Rica?

No, Costa Rica is perfectly safe. San Jose is a big city so you'll want to use common sense just like you would in any other big city plus you'll want to not leave valuables in your car but physical violence isn't a problem. The guide books said to use car parks which have lot attendents to avoid break ins but this was cheap enough (around $1 per day) and it was nice to know someone was watching the car.

The only other way I'd see muggings or being robbed as a risk is if you were intentionally in the wrong part of town late at night. By that I mean the red light district where people buy sex or drugs; the danger would be greatest if someone was drunk or high as this would make you an easy mark for muggers. US common sense and you'll be fine. BTW I've driven in Baja many times and I've never had a problem especially not on highway 1 which is the main highway. The Mexican government knowns lots of tourists use that highway so they have lots of police there to keep things orderly.

	07-06-2005 20:11									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Just wondering how you feel about cleaning ladies cleaning a rich person's home. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but what makes prostitution "inherently" sexist AND exploitive. Are you going into a communist argument about work in a capitalist society being exploitive or do you see something special about sex that makes it more deplorable than other disagreeable tasks which are predominantly done by women because richer men don't want to do them. How about I hire someone to wipe my behind every time I use the bathroom. Seems offensive doesn't it until you find out the behind wiper is a private nurse dealing with a disacbled person. Don't get me wrong . . . I think prostitution stinks but I am wondering what rationale you are using to reach your conclusion. For me . .. . I view sex between two committed people as special and I don't see how anyone can get that sort of connection from a pro. .. Prostitution can only mean rubbing certain body parts together so it seems empty and shallow to me.... but thats a judegement on the desiarability of the experience and not on the offensiveness of the activity On that I am a bit torn. Who am I to tell a 20 year old that she shouldn't earn a thousand a night on her back.??

My intention is not to use a communist argument. One can however, point out some of the unfair exploitation of capitalism without being a communist -- only having a desire to see reforms within capitalism.

As for your analogies using cleaning staff and nurses, neither one of them involve selling one's own body to service someone else. Prositution involves selling your body to a "client/customer."

A cleaning lady does not sell her body -- she sells her service to clean's someone's home/office. A prostitute sells a service that involves direct use of her own body by a "customer."

	07-06-2005 20:13									#102
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun As for your analogies using cleaning staff and nurses, neither one of them involve selling one's own body to service someone else. Prositution involves selling your body to a "client/customer."

So how exactly do they clean then, with their minds? All physical labor involves selling your body. Why should sex work be considered different?

	07-06-2005 20:54									#103
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There's just something about prostitution that makes it more inherently sexist and exploitive than other occupations such as house cleaning.

	07-06-2005 20:56									#104
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So what about male prostitutes?

	07-06-2005 20:58									#105
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Are they not far less common than female prostitutes?

I would say that people would be better off wihout prostitutes of either gender.

	07-06-2005 21:01									#106
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Are they not far less common than female prostitutes?

I don't know, I've never looked for male prostitutes, though I have been mistaken for one, back when I was svelte and cute.

	07-06-2005 21:03									#107
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't know, I've never looked for male prostitutes, though I have been mistaken for one, back when I was svelte and cute.

And to think, those were also the days when you used to be a Republican, right?

	07-06-2005 21:53									#108
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There's just something about prostitution that makes it more inherently sexist and exploitive than other occupations such as house cleaning.

THats what I have been getting at . . WHAT is that "just something about prostitution" ??

Is it morality about sexuality? If a highly sexual woman decided to indiscriminately have sex with anyone she met (no charge), would you see that as "wrong"??

	07-06-2005 22:13									#109
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Are they not far less common than female prostitutes?

Very true but I think thats a function of a society where men are more open and aggressive in pursuing their sexual desires. Think about it. If in a bar a man stands up and says "I want to get laid" he probably won't get an overwhelming response. I am betting his chances of a positive response improve if he's in a gay bar . . . If an equally attractive woman did the same thing (in a straight bar), she would have a line of guys approach her.

Put bluntly I can see male prostitution being less for the simple reason that there is usually a surplus of men looking to get laid (either gay or straight). So that to me limits the market for male prostitutes. Its totally a supply and demand market thing. There is a ready supply of randy males so price is low

If a man wants to "get some", he may or may not succeed depending on his pick-up skills and the reality is that every night there are a bunch of men who wanted to get lucky and didn't. With this high demand, a supply has arisen willing to meet the demand at an increased price.

If you really are a capitalist, you must see this

quote: Originally posted by MrFun I would say that people would be better off wihout prostitutes of either gender.

You are likely quite right. I don't see how it would change my personal lot in life but "society" might be better. Although I am having visions of sexually frustrated men with more money than they would have now and many young women more impoverished than they are now. Would it be that much better? I think things would be much better if the trade could eliminate the pimps and slave traders and the children. If it were just adults and the sexworkers were under no more compulsion to do it than the normal forces that mean you have to get a job to support yourself( and in Canada, welfare rules mean nobody is in the do it or they die situation), it would be much improved. perhaps regulated in licenced centres so no one had to take the risk of getting in a car with a stranger . ..

Although I wonder what will happen in a culture like China if prostitution were eliminated, where the preference for male children has led to a large population imbalance such that a large number of folks simply CANNOT find a conventional mate. The question is whether resorting to a prostitute would be a more healthy expression of their sexuality than years of denial, abstinence and self-gratification. I don't know the answer.

	07-06-2005 22:20									#110
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Even if society would "impove", by your standards, should the government legislate society?

	07-06-2005 22:21									#111
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interesting thoughts, Flubber

	07-06-2005 22:26									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber THats what I have been getting at . . WHAT is that "just something about prostitution" ?? Is it morality about sexuality? If a highly sexual woman decided to indiscriminately have sex with anyone she met (no charge), would you see that as "wrong"??

prostitutes are not prostitutes because they are all about the sex..

Jon Miller

	07-06-2005 22:36									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Even if society would "impove", by your standards, should the government legislate society?

Government already does legislate society in a number of ways. Now many of them makes it ILLEGAL to offer a service for money if the service happens to be sexual. If the activity were completely legal, why could it not be licenced just the same as a restaurant.

Canada has weird laws since municpalities get involved. In Calgary an escort needs a licence which requires a big fee and a clear criminal record. They then regularly bust the licenced joints and try to charge the owners with procuring prostitutes or "living off the avails"( pimping). So the message is stay underground

	07-06-2005 22:42									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller prostitutes are not prostitutes because they are all about the sex.. Jon Miller

Exactly. My assumption is that prostitues are not at all about the sex and are completley about the money. Its a job and I'm betting some hate every second while others prefer it to other jobs they have held.

But neither is the horsecrap shoveller all about the horsecrap-- yet we see nothing offensive about the shovelling.

That was why I raised the obvious point that it is because sex is involved that we view prostitution differently. Sex feels personal and intimate and not something people share with anyone that wants. Thats why I raised the example of a girl that (for whatever reason) WANTED to freely share her body. If people see that as wrong then it is obvious they will see prostitution as wrong.

	07-06-2005 22:48									#115
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There's just something about prostitution that makes it more inherently sexist and exploitive than other occupations such as house cleaning.

So, you would approve of prostitution in a communist paradise where the state would keep the profits and the women would work for a modest salary?

Or, would the service be totally "free" like health care?

But, of course, in such a communist paradise, few women would be prostitutes, would they not, as the profession would be no more remunerative than waitressing, for example. So, just how would the state supply the demand?

	07-06-2005 22:53									#116
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if you said guy who wanted to freely share his body, people would see nothing wrong with that (but the Moral types..)

and in a lot of groups, there is a lot of girls who do, and want to, freely share their body (well, with whoever is cute..)

inherent in prostitution is having to have sex in ways that you don't want to with people you don't want to

also, a decent ammount of prostitution sex is about dominance

someone whose job is to muck out stables (And has nothing to do but that) is not, generally, doing that because of being dominated by the person who is employing him/her

it is different for prostitution (not all prostitution, but a decent portion of it)

Jon Miller

	07-06-2005 22:58									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Even if society would "impove", by your standards, should the government legislate society?

Legislating to improve society is one of the two core functions of a state.

	07-06-2005 23:22									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin No, Costa Rica is perfectly safe. San Jose is a big city so you'll want to use common sense just like you would in any other big city plus you'll want to not leave valuables in your car but physical violence isn't a problem. The guide books said to use car parks which have lot attendents to avoid break ins but this was cheap enough (around $1 per day) and it was nice to know someone was watching the car. The only other way I'd see muggings or being robbed as a risk is if you were intentionally in the wrong part of town late at night. By that I mean the red light district where people buy sex or drugs; the danger would be greatest if someone was drunk or high as this would make you an easy mark for muggers. US common sense and you'll be fine. BTW I've driven in Baja many times and I've never had a problem especially not on highway 1 which is the main highway. The Mexican government knowns lots of tourists use that highway so they have lots of police there to keep things orderly.

I didn't realize you've been down to Baja California. I've always been interested in going down there.

	07-06-2005 23:23									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't know, I've never looked for male prostitutes, though I have been mistaken for one, back when I was svelte and cute.

, Che, the communist male prostitute. You shouldn't have admitted to that.

	07-06-2005 23:29									#120
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I think the problem could be easier solved by putting something in the water (or air) to lower men's libido. I wish my libido was lower. I hate thinking about sex all the time. I hate being horny all the time.

If men stopped wasting all these resources pursueing prostitutes, and concentrated their efforts on more noble causes, we'd have a much improved society.