07-06-2005 23:35									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Nacht The idea that someone who's visiting a prostitute can ask her to do what he wants en has her completely under control is a million miles away from the truth.

That isnt what I said. I meant, they feel as though they are, the delusion of power is much the same as the reality - paying someone for any kind of service gives a feeling of power, its inevitable to feel superior and in control if you're the one with the cash.

Hence why I said it's not necessarily about the actual act of sex as the feeling involved would be different it the girl was doing it for free. The involvement of money gives it a 'servant' type connotation that a lot of blokes find appealing - even if it's all in their heads, it's still an important factor

Obviously its the girls who call the shots the vast majority of the time, I dont think many people would deny that, unless they had just landed on the planet after a lifetime of deep space seclusion.

And, just for the record, I'm not against prostitution by any stretch of the imagination.

	08-06-2005 00:42									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller if you said guy who wanted to freely share his body, people would see nothing wrong with that (but the Moral types..)

I said girl since the most prostitutes are female and changing the sex adds in another variable

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller inherent in prostitution is having to have sex in ways that you don't want to with people you don't want to

NO-- that might be inherent in some prostitution but I think its more accurate to say that women choose to have sex with people that they would not choose to for free, in order to earn money. . . But this is little different than any job. I wouldn't dig a ditch but I will if paid to do so.

The element is choice --- Do you think those expensive escorts go off with someone if they really really don't want to. Plus if you research at all on the subject, it seems like the girls set the rules as to what they do and don't allow. Now the crack hos might take anyone that comes their way but again they choose-- they choose to screw anyone for their next hit

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller also, a decent ammount of prostitution sex is about dominance

I assume some of it is . . but I don't know. I also assume some of it is about guys getting a good looking girl to act like their girlfriend for a while.

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller someone whose job is to muck out stables (And has nothing to do but that) is not, generally, doing that because of being dominated by the person who is employing him/her

Since I don't assume that domination is genesis of prostitution I don't necessarily accept your distinction here. Both are doing things that they might find distasteful for money. Heck, if offered the same money for the task, a prostitute might prefer to perform a sex act than shovel that manure. . . . and maybe just maybe if the customer was the type of guy she would find attractive in real life and he treated her with respect, she wouldn't find the acts of pleasuring him to be distastful at all

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller it is different for prostitution (not all prostitution, but a decent portion of it)

I agree prostitution is different. For me, my negative feelings are because I WANT sex to be more special. Its the same reason I think for a person to sleep with a bunch of people is somewhat wrong but ultimately their choice.

But is that the knock on prostitution? A feeling that sex is special in a way that HOW DARE THEY SELL THE THING I SEE AS SPECIAL??

Because the distinction blurs. I can go to a certified masseuse and get a pleasurable back massage . . . I assume thats ok with everyone. Perhaps she massages buttocks and thighs and a sexual reaction occurrs-- is that now not ok? Does you assessment cahnge if I merely enjoy it without a sexual feeling??
Then instead you go to a massage parlour where a different part is massaged to an even more pleasuarble result.

Assuming this is wrong and reprehensible, at what point did it become wrong?? Is it when the customer felt something sexual? Or does it only become wrong if the massuse intends something sexual and therefore intended to sell something sexual?

If you want other shades of gray, lots of women date men in part because they have money. Its not overt prostitution but there are legions of women that sleep with men that they wouldn't if financial circumstances were different. Many of them weren't even conscious of it and would say they are with their guy because he is a great guy or whatever. But the good car, nice house and fancy dinners had an impact, even if they cannot acknowledge it.

	08-06-2005 00:49									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Verres Hence why I said it's not necessarily about the actual act of sex as the feeling involved would be different it the girl was doing it for free. The involvement of money gives it a 'servant' type connotation that a lot of blokes find appealing - even if it's all in their heads, it's still an important factor

You see I thought that it would be that many guys just want the illusion of a girlfriend for just a little while . . . I would think they would want to forget the "pay for it aspect" and fantasize that the hot girls with them is really attracted to them. I remember seeing a documentry where escorts indicated that a suprising number of clients just seemed to want someone to act interested in them and that the sex was just a small part of that.


Perhaps I have a naive view of the clients. I see lonely men wheras it seems many posters on here see them as men who want to dominate and abuse women. I know that goes on as well but I see a typical client as a 50 year old guy who is tickled pink to have a 20 something hottie on his arm acting all interested

	08-06-2005 04:21									#124
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I think that this thread is lacking from actual knowledge. All single apolytoner's who don't have a strong moral conviction against prostitution should immediately begin a reserach project into the topic and report back in a week

	08-06-2005 04:32									#125
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Would you give me a research grant?

	08-06-2005 04:39									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Would you give me a research grant?

I would have to see an application of course.

i expect to see a request for $1000 to see a supermodel but of course you'll end up getting $23.50 and then start looking for corporate sponsorship

	08-06-2005 04:41									#127
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A supermodel? To get meaningful results, I'd need to sample the full scale of the business, from luxury courtesans to enslaved underage girls from Ukraine.

	08-06-2005 04:43									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist A supermodel? To get meaningful results, I'd need to sample the full scale of the business, from luxury courtesans to enslaved underage girls from Ukraine.

I am sure all of apolyton is aware of the sacrifice you are willing to undertake here.

To test your resolve we will give you $20 to sample the "50 year old crack addict" in the business for 30 years . . If you can tolerate that and bring back a detailed report, you may just ne the man for the job

	08-06-2005 04:45									#129
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actually in an imperfect world prostitution does perform (excuse the pun ) some useful social functions.

Firstly it provides income for women, particulary in countries without a social safety net.

Secondly it gives sex deprived men an outlet, probably reducing sexual harrassment and rape in society.

There are a number of scenarios where married men would use prostitutes and this would be preferable to them having a girlfriend on the side, which would threaten the family.

One common one would be sexual dysfunction within the marriage. I'm not talking about anything perverse but where for example the wife was unable to have sex due to a medical condition. A painful menopause would be a common one, back pain another. The man still loves his wife but doesn't impose his sexual needs on her. The attraction of prostitutes is its a straight money transaction, no ties.

Its not the perfect solution but there is a reason why prostitution has been part of human society since earliest times.

	08-06-2005 05:01									#130
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thanks for completely ignoring my post Flubber

JM

	08-06-2005 05:03									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller if you said guy who wanted to freely share his body, people would see nothing wrong with that (but the Moral types..) and in a lot of groups, there is a lot of girls who do, and want to, freely share their body (well, with whoever is cute..) inherent in prostitution is having to have sex in ways that you don't want to with people you don't want to also, a decent ammount of prostitution sex is about dominance someone whose job is to muck out stables (And has nothing to do but that) is not, generally, doing that because of being dominated by the person who is employing him/her it is different for prostitution (not all prostitution, but a decent portion of it) Jon Miller

good post

	08-06-2005 05:16									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, of course, in such a communist paradise, few women would be prostitutes, would they not, as the profession would be no more remunerative than waitressing, for example. So, just how would the state supply the demand?

Aristophanes was an acient Greek play write who often fkirted with the idea of utopian societies. He was a contemperary of Sophicles and in his play Lysistrata women first stop a war between Athens & Sparta when the women of both cities agree to stop having sex with their husbands until the men agree to stop the war. Emboldened by their success in stopping the war the women take over the government and institute the "Ultimate Democracy" where all land & goods belong collectively and everyone gets an equal share. One of the men points out that men will still compete for and fight over women so the women come up with a plan where every man & every women gets to have sex with who ever they want when ever they want. The catch is the oldest men and women get to choose they want first and the youngest have to wait until everyone older is done.

It would never work but it's a novel idea.

	08-06-2005 05:20									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I didn't realize you've been down to Baja California. I've always been interested in going down there.

Yeah, I used to go to Rosarito Beach all the time for surfing and cheap beer when I was to young to get into American bars. I've never driven all the way to Cabo before but I'd like to then maybe take the ferry over to the mainland and drive north on the other side of the Gulf of California.

	08-06-2005 12:16									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller thanks for completely ignoring my post Flubber JM

huh??

I quoted your last one at length and responded to almost every sentence

	08-06-2005 12:24									#135
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you didn't respond to my post though...

didn't respond once to my issues of domination..

people don't hire people to shovel their stables, and then call them **** the entire time...

it happens in prostitution

of prostitutes were respected, and the people involved did it because they enjoyed sex, then I wouldn't have nearly the problem I do now..

but as it is, it is a way that mostly women are made to feel that they are less then men, and for men to feel that they are better then women

this isn't something our culture should encourage...

Jon Miller

	08-06-2005 12:34									#136
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I saw a psuedo documentary late at night on HBO. The prostitutes were mostly lesbians who got a sense of superiority of their "weak" customers. They took the money and viewed it as a form of punishment that they inflicted upon the men.

	08-06-2005 12:54									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I think that this thread is lacking from actual knowledge. All single apolytoner's who don't have a strong moral conviction against prostitution should immediately begin a reserach project into the topic and report back in a week

lacking actual knowledge? I was in the navy. 'nuff said.

	08-06-2005 13:08									#138
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quote: Originally posted by pchang I saw a psuedo documentary late at night on HBO. The prostitutes were mostly lesbians who got a sense of superiority of their "weak" customers. They took the money and viewed it as a form of punishment that they inflicted upon the men.

They are also typically sexual abuse victims ( a very high percentage of lesbians are in general ) who learned how to entice men rather than love them. Strippers also fit this description in a very high percentage of cases. This is probably reason #1 (out of many) why the thought of taking part in this sort of thing sickens me.

On the other hand women in other parts of the world are more likely to become prostitutes for purely economic reasons. In many cultures prostitution is more acceptable for both parties. Even in the west there is a lot to be said for regulation and legalization, as prohibition tends to be worse than what is prohibited in many cases. As with a lot of drugs I think the best we can do is legalize it, regulate it, and try to make it as rare as possible.

	08-06-2005 13:53									#139
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He'ss back (been quite ill - now have insomnia due to them taking me off some drugs).

First - SCOTUS has upheld laws pernitting US Nationals to be persecuted and/or sanctioned for actions outside the US. There have been multiple successful prosecutions on this. The most recent case came about over drug convictions actually, if memory serves my properly. What I find it interesting was that SCOTUS would not even consider the fact that the rules of evidence are wildly different in other countries, as is what constitutes due process. At least for US citizens, be VERY careful in foreign countries.

To expand on Sikander's point, it is not just sexual abuse. At least in the US you also have many women - and adolescents - working in the various sex trades, from stripping to prostitution, who have had very negative male role models but were not per se sexually abused. Think instead physically or even verbally abusive relationships, or where the male role model is very distant, unapproving, or even neglectful of their little girl(s).

They do not understand what a healthy relationship is, and due to the sexualized nature of so much popular culture (IMHO and many others, this is the first non-fact here) instead find using their sexuality as the primary subtext for their interpersonal relationships acceptable. It's very sad. That being said, regulation has been shown to greatly reduce the crime and other problems associated with prostitution.

	08-06-2005 14:16									#140
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quote: he only way I could avoid these constant advances was to have my friend Irene (a female friend from college who came with me to Costa Rica) go with me every where

i could never think of the "could we always do everything together on this trip cause i want to avoid all these women coming at me?" line

	08-06-2005 15:46									#142
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Irene is a hottie.

	08-06-2005 15:53									#143
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Pictures!

	08-06-2005 17:07									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller you didn't respond to my post though... didn't respond once to my issues of domination.. people don't hire people to shovel their stables, and then call them **** the entire time... it happens in prostitution of prostitutes were respected, and the people involved did it because they enjoyed sex, then I wouldn't have nearly the problem I do now.. but as it is, it is a way that mostly women are made to feel that they are less then men, and for men to feel that they are better then women this isn't something our culture should encourage... Jon Miller

i agree about the respect part, but legalized prostitution sure seems alot better than illegal. Getting tested for STDs and removing the business from organized crime and etc...

plus I got to contribute 30 euro to some german college student's scholarship. awesome.

	08-06-2005 17:13									#145
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Gosh, funny that no one has mentioned AIDS or other STDs as a problem with prostitution. You should realize that the primary tests used to screen for HIV infection generally does not detaect the disease until the victim has been infected for 4 to 6 weeks. In a developed country how often do you think HIV screening would be required of prostitutes? If they're tested every 4 weeks that means an infected prostitute could be contagious and in circulation for over 2 months before she's detected.

Last edited by Dr Strangelove on 08-06-2005 at 17:21

	08-06-2005 18:18									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller you didn't respond to my post though... didn't respond once to my issues of domination.. people don't hire people to shovel their stables, and then call them **** the entire time... it happens in prostitution of prostitutes were respected, and the people involved did it because they enjoyed sex, then I wouldn't have nearly the problem I do now.. but as it is, it is a way that mostly women are made to feel that they are less then men, and for men to feel that they are better then women this isn't something our culture should encourage... Jon Miller

Sure I responded -- by rejecting your opinion-- As I said I don't know if either of us is right -- I suspect we both are to some extent and what a "pro" expects and accepts can be pretty individual to that pro

How do you know that a significant number of the customers involved just don't simply want sex with a younger more attractive partner than they could otherwise attract? How do you know that a fair number of the pros have the ability to work other things but they see this as more money quicker than anything else they could do?

	08-06-2005 18:21									#147
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scary ain't it

	08-06-2005 19:04									#148
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Actually Dr. Stranglove that was my mention with "other problems." HIV and STD's are a bigger problem when prostitution is NOT regulated. Especially if with regulation prostitutes are no longer under the control of pimps who will beat them if they do not bring in enough money, and having unprotected sex and generates a higher fee from the clients.

	08-06-2005 19:58									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Gosh, funny that no one has mentioned AIDS or other STDs as a problem with prostitution. You should realize that the primary tests used to screen for HIV infection generally does not detaect the disease until the victim has been infected for 4 to 6 weeks. In a developed country how often do you think HIV screening would be required of prostitutes? If they're tested every 4 weeks that means an infected prostitute could be contagious and in circulation for over 2 months before she's detected.

I never mentioned it as I saw it as self-evident that numerous sex partners bring a number of risks. Its an issue but in the final analysis an irrelevant one. If we accept a person's right to have numerous sex partners and engage in orgies, we already are saying that adults have the right to assume certain risks.


On the issue though . . . A secretary at my old firm works for an organization that has a van drive around talking with the streetwalkers. (They are actually trying to counsel them out of the trade but in the meantime they chat them up and provide coffee, water and condoms). Apparently the vast majority of the working girls are very safety conscious to the point that they would never touch a naked penis with any part of themselves. The first contact with the penis is the touch of latex being applied. My friend was suprised to learn that a condom was used even if all the guy wanted was a manual release.That doesn't solve the problem but the fact that very strict safe sex practices are the norm would lessen the spread of disease

	08-06-2005 20:08									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I would think they would want to forget the "pay for it aspect" and fantasize that the hot girls with them is really attracted to them.

You haven't seen that many prositutes, have you. Most are not attractive.