06-06-2005 20:39									#151
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Also don't forget 2-3 years back in DC at one of the World Bank/IMF protests, a bunch of protesters were hanging out in a park. Not breaking anything, heck, I don't even think they were chanting angry slogans. They were just resting for a bit, maybe having lunch, beating on drums and such.

Police on horseback encircled the entire park. Some protesters tried to leave (and reporters too), and the police wouldn't let them leave. Then they brought by buses and herded every last person into buses and arrested them.

The reason? Apparently the police claimed they were trespassing and refused to leave when ordered.

Of course its a public park, so how could they possibly be tresspassing? As far as I know there were no directions for the people to leave. And several times people attempted to leave, but were prevented from doing so by police.

I'm with Che. Most things are started by the police, or made worse by them.

	06-06-2005 20:39									#152
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Yeah, but you're an old fart, Ming. Our generation isn't as violent as your was. We learned from you guys not to start fights with cops.

My buddy, Steve Vega, and old Brown Panther (a Chicano organization) was at a street demo in the 60s. He was standing in the street when some cops told him to get on the sidewalk. He said, "This is a public street cop, what are you gonna do, arrest me?" "No," the cops said, smirking. They hand cuffed him and threw him in their car, took him a few blocks, and proceeded to beat the crap out of him.

And that, boys and girls, is why I always obey the nice police officers.

	06-06-2005 20:46									#153
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I can understand the attitude that most people would rather blame the police, even if the protesters start something

	06-06-2005 20:47									#154
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I think those pigs were just harassing che to fill their quota... Now they can go beat up some black dude with a clean conscience.

	06-06-2005 20:48									#155
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OzzyKP doesn't mention the stellar intelligence that the police had on these folks and what they were planning to do and that it was the same folks who had started riots in Seattle only a short time before.

	06-06-2005 20:48									#156
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Damn, I missed Shrub's motorcade talking to you freaks.

	06-06-2005 20:49									#157
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Life is what is happening while you are posting.

	06-06-2005 20:50									#158
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quote: Originally posted by DanS OzzyKP doesn't mention the stellar intelligence that the police had on these folks and what they were planning to do and that it was the same folks who had started riots in Seattle only a short time before.

The film evidence shows it was clearly the police who started the violence in Seattle.

"Stellar intelligence" As if it took so much effort to just go hang out in an open workshop.

Here they're talking about people wanting to carry gasoline cans to the demonstration.

	06-06-2005 21:01									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think those pigs were just harassing che to fill their quota... Now they can go beat up some black dude with a clean conscience.

Please don't get me started on the "quota" BS.

	06-06-2005 21:35									#160
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Well as far as I understand the logic in most 'CHAAARGE!' from the police is because they are close to lose the control over the situation, then what seems rather peaceful protest can turn into breaking it into pieces. Basically there should not be a situation where the police can not control the situation if it was to get out of the hand, in big crowds, the control is the key, it turns quickly into mayhem.

I'm not saying there aren't any crowd breakings that have been too rough or even too early or just useless, but I'm saying, when you put hood on your head, hippie pants and start jumping in front of the row of cops, instigating, few joins there, do not expect it to go by.. behavior like that is fire and it spreads fast, so when someone starts to act like a stupid activist commie, they'll get their faces bashed in as well as they should. not because they were activist commies, but because they were stupid and started to take over the situation like that. tear gas in the eye is small price to pay for possible mayhem, and if someone was asking for it, they shouldn't be crying in activist websites, they should be in jail, strapped, taking continuous beatings from good old citizens who hate hippies.

	06-06-2005 21:37									#161
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Why doesn't it surprise me that Pekka would be supporting fascism?

	06-06-2005 21:39									#162
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There's nothing fascist about tear gassing commies. TEAR GAS IN YOUR EYES! TEAR GAS IN YOUR EYES!

Oh and I was only talking about crowd control. About what you went through, I wasn't supporting that, and I think it sucks. So there.

	06-06-2005 22:26									#163
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I don't think controling people is fascism. It's just maintaining control which is what the state does. Fascist govts just do it in another way. You don't really have more freedom in a democracy. You only have the freedom that they want you to have. People know this when they go to protest. They prefer that the police use their control. That shows the point they are trying to make.

	06-06-2005 22:36									#164
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Damn, I missed Shrub's motorcade talking to you freaks.

I think you're lucky that they didn't figure out your apartment was in the path of the motorcade.

If they had, you probably wouldn't be here posting.
You'd be in jail demanding to se your lawyerl

ACK!

	06-06-2005 22:41									#165
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quote: I can understand the attitude that most people would rather blame the police, even if the protesters start something

No. Most protesters get angry with the few who attack the police. More fights break out between protester over this than between the protesters and the police. The Black Bloc tend to be quite careful about making sure that everyone knows that the folk who hang out with them might end up fighting. That's why in Quebec everyone was told where to go to avoid being associated with the BB if they didn't want to be.

There are elderly people and children who come along to these things. The Quebec protest was attended by a geriatric former Tory cabinet minister, who got tear gassed along with the teens (he must have been hard, he was right up front). The police will kill people if they start attacking crowds with people like that in them.

	07-06-2005 00:04									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal quote: Originally posted by Dissident It's called privacy. Cops always say we don't know how it feels to be a cop. Well, cops don't know how it feels to be an innocent citizen and being harrassed by the cops. Cops are citizens as well and know fully what it is like to be one. quote: It's real ****ing simple. You see someone break the law you arrest them. You see someone walking down the street, you leave them alone. I wish it were that simple. My job also includes trying to prevent laws from being broken. quote: I will not back down. I don't care what cop sees this, anyone who harrasses innocent civilians walking down the streets are ****ing *******s who need to lose their jobs. And I agree with you, however, your appearent definition of harrassment and that of the state seem to differ.

yes cops are citizens too, but they are usually clean cut guys who don't look scruffy looking. And they don't look like anarchists.

	16-06-2005 01:07									#167
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I just sent a letter to the editor of my local paper in response to the following.

quote: Police averted a repeat of Seattle T.M. Roland Jr. Cooper City Posted June 15 2005 Re Michael Mayo's June 7 commentary, "OAS security makes locals feel uneasy," and the accompanying article, "Shops bemoan their losses": In his commentary, Mr. Mayo reports on the efforts of law enforcement that made "Southeast 17th Street look like something out of a police state playbook." And shop owners from 17th Street complained about a loss of revenue during the recent Organization of American States meetings. To these individuals, I offer two words: Remember Seattle. In December 1999, during the World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle, hundreds of anarchists hid behind our First Amendment rights to cause millions of dollars in property damage to the city of Seattle. Do we want a Seattle battlefield in our own hometown? To the law enforcement organizations that spent hundreds of man-hours preparing for this event and to the hundreds of professional law enforcement officers, including the South Florida Customs & Border Protection officers whom I work with every day, who sacrificed time with their families in weather when the heat index approached 100 degrees daily, to protect our city, I offer two more words: Thank you.

I would like to reply to the Letter to the Editors by T.M.Roland, "Police averted a repeat of Seattle." I live in the neighborhood that was decended upon by scores of police and a few dozen protestors. I made the mistake of putting on a black t-shirt before I knew there was a protest and went to the local Publix to buy a kitty litter pan. Upon leaving, I was accosted by police who demanded to know where I was coming from, where I lived, to see my I.D., know what was in my backpack, and then to search my backpack. While they were professional and polite, they were nonetheless violating my 4th Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

The greatest irony of that days is that at the moment while the police were violating my Constitutional Rights, Condoleza Rice was a couple blocks away saying, "Wherever a free society is in retreat, a fear society is on the offensive. And the weapon of choice for every authoritarian regime is the organized cruelty of the police state."

Furthermore, I do remember Seattle. In Seattle, the police assaulted the protestors, who were peacably assembled. Later in the week, the police surrounded the neighborhood of Capital Hill (the alternative district) and proceded to go berserk, even tough there was *no protest* going on there. At each demonstration that week, it was police who instigated the violence. Yes, six anarchists did break into and bust up a Starbucks. That hardly excuses the police for beating hundreds and deploying chemical weapons on a city.

	16-06-2005 01:14									#168
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Nice, but you could have spelled "descended" properly.

	16-06-2005 01:14									#169
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I should spelled several things correctly, but I didn't.

	16-06-2005 01:17									#170
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Never mind, we can attribute it to your angry zeal.

	16-06-2005 01:24									#171
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Is it only a personal letter to junior or are it to be published in the paper ?

	16-06-2005 05:50									#172
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Like I have said, don't be upset at the police, be upset with whoever made the choice regarding the security level in this situation. Whoever it was obviously has a different interuptation of the 5th amendment.

quote: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger;

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I would like to reply to the Letter to the Editors by T.M.Roland, "Police averted a repeat of Seattle." I live in the neighborhood that was decended upon by scores of police and a few dozen protestors. I made the mistake of putting on a black t-shirt before I knew there was a protest and went to the local Publix to buy a kitty litter pan. Upon leaving, I was accosted by police who demanded to know where I was coming from, where I lived, to see my I.D., know what was in my backpack, and then to search my backpack. While they were professional and polite, they were nonetheless violating my 4th Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure.

Once again, you just have a different opinion on what was "unreasonable search and seizure". Rest assured that the police will have a very strict policy regarding this action.

quote: Furthermore, I do remember Seattle. In Seattle, the police assaulted the protestors, who were peacably assembled. Later in the week, the police surrounded the neighborhood of Capital Hill (the alternative district) and proceded to go berserk, even tough there was *no protest* going on there. At each demonstration that week, it was police who instigated the violence. Yes, six anarchists did break into and bust up a Starbucks. That hardly excuses the police for beating hundreds and deploying chemical weapons on a city.

I remember Seatle also, yet I seem to have gotten quite the different impression from you. Actually, it would seem that a vast majority of people I know got a different impression of the situation.

Lets look at the OAS protest from a hypothetical situation: How would the protest have gone if the police were not there?
Number one, the gathering would have been MUCH larger. More people, more potential for trouble.
Number two, the type of people who gathered there are appearently anarchist (to some varying degree). Not sure if you realize this, but a large gathering of people of this sort tend to be rather unruly. Combine that with a lack of police presense and you'd have been lucky to even get out of their with your backpack in one piece.
Number three, mob rule. Look at how easy it is for "victory" riots to occure. Someone wins a spoting event and the people go nuts. In their enthusiasm a car gets flipped over and started on fire. Now this is just people who are happy about their sports team. Imagine if it was a group of anarchists who were not happy about something, but already upset about something. The thing would have quickly devolved into an all out riot.

Now on top of all this, you complain about ploice presense when it is clearly needed, them you complain that they wern't there (or atleast summond) at the exact instant you wanted them when there was no pre-existing reason for them to be there (I am refering to your other thread about the McDs (of which, thought you handled yourself in an exemplary manor)). You can't have it both ways.

It seems to me that no matter what the cops do, in your mind, they are wrong.

	16-06-2005 21:05									#173
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The paper called and they are considering publishing it.

Donegal, 4th Amendment, not 5th.

quote: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I am not complaining about the police presence, per se, but rather the overboard response towards people who were not engaged in criminal behavior. I expect a heavy police presence because there will be a gathering of foreign ministers and the POTUS will be arriving. Given the absolute attractiveness of the potential target for terrorism, anything less would be negligence. The convention center, btw, is right next to (and I mean seperated by a fence) from a fuel depot / refinery. Granted I didn't investigate the depot, but there were less police in that part of my neighborhood than in the part with all the shops.

As for what happened at to me at McDonalds, it's hardly the police's fault for not being there. No one called them. I blame McDonalds management, not the police.

Now, I expect to see police at a demonstration. In the past, they were even quite friendly with me personally. I don't see any reason to deliberately anatagonize cops, and being a decent human being towards them might save my ass from a skull cracking down the line.

Now here, there were two groups protesting, leftists and rightists. I think a police presence was necessary to stop them from fighting, since pro and anti Chavez forces aren't really friends, and those trying to block the extradition of the right-wing terrorist Posada-Carriles aren't terribly friendly towards socialists.

But I had nothing to do with the protests. I was just going to the store.

	20-06-2005 19:25									#174
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Woot!

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/op...la-news-letters

	20-06-2005 19:39									#175
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Congrats on getting your letter in...

	20-06-2005 19:42									#176
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I wonder if I should get a copy of the paper . . . assuming I can find it (probably could at a gas station or supermarket).

	20-06-2005 19:44									#177
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

A copy of the paper would be nice to have... but worse case, just print a copy from the net. You should have something to keep

	20-06-2005 20:30									#178
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[Che's funny name]



You should change your name to "Super Duper McSocialist" for the added class.

Last edited by Agathon on 22-06-2005 at 23:47

	20-06-2005 21:42									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Well, when your job description seems to be "beat up on and hassle left-wing protest groups, whilst allowing establishment gatherings to proceed unmolested (like the tory protest in Britain a few years back), some of us might be a bit less than convinced of the neutrality of the police.

Why shouldn't the "establishment" be able to meet "unmolested"??

How would you feel if the rightists decided to storm your meetings?? I'd be willing to bet if there was a big communist meeting that was going to be protested by rabid righties, these same police would be there to protect your meeting places and keep the righties out


I saw a lot of protests and police responses when the G-8 met in Calgary and Kananskis. I thought that generally the Canadian police were very very restrained in their response. Essentially what I witnessed was protestors given pretty free rein except when they attempted to storm a building. . . Various parades were permitted to block streets-- all the police did was block certain streets to attempt to minimize the impact on traffic ( they had a groups that would leapfrog the parade to create blockades to protect the protestors from traffic etc plus the police had spoken with the leaders about the planned route agian for their protection and so they could ensure security)