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DanS is offline DanS
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Europe's demilitarization Tired of ads?

Should Europe increase its military spending?

Here's an interesting article about the lack of European spending on defense. Personally, I think the US is spending roughly a proper amount on defense (down to about 3.75% of the economy, without Iraq/Afghanistan, 1/2 to 1/3rd of what we spent during the Cold War). But often I get frustrated at waste at the Defense Department and think we should get more for our money. So I'm not sure this "systems of systems" R&D is really worth it. Sounds vaguely like Washington bureaucratic-speak for "expensive worthless stuff."

In any event, I think it's in our interest that Europe take more responsibility for its own defense. As the referenced report states, other than the UK and France, which spend about 2.75% of their economies on defense, nobody in Europe spends much at all -- none above 2%. Pretty pathetic, IMO.

Also, it's interesting to note that this report is completely opposite of what some French leaders think about creating a counterbalance to the "hyperpower" US. Rather, it talks about EU collaboration with the US. This makes sense to me. If we can make our defense dollars/euros go further by collaborating, that's good stuff.

Pertinent parts bolded.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/95944d4c-d...000e2511c8.html

quote:
Europe warned to boost its weapons' spending
By Peter Spiegel in London
Published: June 5 2005 21:58 | Last updated: June 5 2005 21:58

Europe is at risk of falling severely behind the US in weapons technologies unless it increases spending on military equipment and research by as much as €45bn a year, a panel appointed by Michele Alliot-Marie, the French defence minister, will warn this week.

According to people who have read the panel's report, which will be presented at a symposium attended by Ms Alliot-Marie on Wednesday, it found that spending on military hardware in the European Union is equal to only a third of the Pentagon's equipment budget, and research spending Europe-wide totals only a fifth of US outlays.

While the panel found that Europe's defence industry continues to be competitive in several sectors - fighter aircraft, military helicopters and defence electronics - it warns that heavy US spending on high-technology networks that can link weapons together could leave Europe's capabilities in so-called "systems of systems" far behind.

It calls for the establishment of a ministry working group, the College Operationnel des Systemes de Systems, to plot French strategy in the area.

The report was compiled by the Defence Economy Council, a panel set up by Ms Alliot-Marie after taking over the ministry three years ago to assess the health of France and Europe's defence industries and to give a higher profile to defence spending.

The nine-member council is chaired by Philippe Esper, a long-time government and defence industry official, and includes General Henri Bentegeat, chief of the French defence staff, and François Lureau, head of the defence procurement agency.

People who have read the report said that it finds France and Britain have accounted for nearly half of all spending on military equipment in Europe over the past three years and more than two-thirds of all EU defence research budgets.

France and Britain are also two of only four European countries that spend 2 per cent of gross domestic product on defence (the US spends more than 3 per cent), and the report says an EU-wide budget of 2 per cent of GDP would increase military spending by €45bn, which would help preserve Europe's defence base.

Although the study includes several recommendations for European co-operation in defence spending, it is also said to include a call for increased transatlantic partnerships, urging French industry and officials to overcome past difficulties to work more closely with the US.


It notes that Britain's BAE Systems remains the only European defence company with a big US presence, and provides encouragement to French and European groups to achieve a similar standing.

Indeed, people who have seen the report said it cites the UK as a model for several defence spending initiatives, particularly its recent push to outsource Ministry of Defence activities - including some front-line missions, such as air-to-air refuelling tankers - to the private sector.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Given how bloodthirsty they've been throughout their history (Crusades, wars of religion, Napoleonic warfare and worldwide conquest, the Nazi/Communist ideologies, etc), the last thing the planet needs is an armed Europe.

Imho, of course.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
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Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
In any event, I think it's in our interest that Europe take more responsibility for its own defense. As the referenced report states, other than the UK and France, which spend about 2.75% of their economies on defense, nobody in Europe spends much at all -- none above 2%. Pretty pathetic, IMO.

Yeah you're right. How are they ever going to get to the top of the Killing People League with that kind of apathy. They should really put more effort into their death-dealing infrastructure. Especially now with all the instability in the region, it's never been more vital that these democracy loving sovereign nations be able to inflict rapid and efficient destruction and slaughter in any situations.

DanS is offline DanS
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JohnT: If Europe doesn't spend the money, that usually means we're spending the money. Are you cool with that?

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Yup.

I'm serious. Few things on this planet are more dangerous than when Europe gets a hard on for something. Better to keep them tame.

DanS is offline DanS
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I'm somewhat sympathetic to that view. But I just don't like to spend my money, when somebody else could be spending their own money. That's all.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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DanS, I prefer my GDP being spent in more useful things, thank you very much

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I'm somewhat sympathetic to that view. But I just don't like to spend my money, when somebody else could be spending their own money. That's all.

Nothing forces you to spend nearly as much money in defense. It's not like there's an arm race going on right now.

Actually, if Europe spent more on military research, we could be witnessing a new "arms race" of sorts. No thanks.

DanS is offline DanS
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You're never going to get far in the US with that view. Our national history suggests that we should keep our arms locker full precisely so we don't have an arms race. We've thrown our arms away more than once and it's gotten us nothing but heartache.

But historically, Americans have been distrustful of the military industrial complex. I share this distrust.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
You're never going to get far in the US with that view. Our national history suggests that we should keep our arms locker full precisely so we don't have an arms race.

To each his own national trauma then.

I don't see why we Euros should invest in weaponry when there is no tangible military threat. If you Yanks enjoy wasting your money in such toys, it's your problem, not ours.

quote:
We've thrown our arms away more than once and it's gotten us nothing but heartache.

What happened?

DanS is offline DanS
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The resurgence of a militarized dictatorship in Germany (WW I) and the Soviet Union (WW II).

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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Got spare money?

Maybe we should spend less on our military and stop invading places.

kronic is offline kronic
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We shouldn't spend more than 1 % of the GDP for our military. And we should reduce our ridiculously high number of soldiers. And we should abolish the draft.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
The resurgence of a militarized dictatorship in Germany (WW I) and the Soviet Union (WW II).

I don't see how either comes from a lack of military spending. The US didn't intervene in militaristic Germany because the US was isolationistic at the time. The US didn't "beat the iron while it was hot" with the USSR (it didn't invade the USSR in 1945), despite the arms locker being more than full at the time.

In today's world, the US can pwn any non-nuclear country. The only military weakness of the US is with peacekeeping, but there's no need for kickass technology in this job.

Flip McWho is offline Flip McWho
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Aye Europe is going in a mightly good direction, if only the yanks would look to Europe for guidence in these days of days.

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
Originally posted by kronic
We shouldn't spend more than 1 % of the GDP for our military. And we should reduce our ridiculously high number of soldiers. And we should abolish the draft.


Those are mutually exclusive goals. I would heartily support the abolishment of the draft where it exists in Europe. But that means you are moving to a professional force, which is much more expensive.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by Flip McWho
Aye Europe is going in a mightly good direction, if only the yanks would look to Europe for guidence in these days of days.


Word.

It seems we have gone backwards in time.

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

I don't see how either comes from a lack of military spending. The US didn't intervene in militaristic Germany because the US was isolationistic at the time. The US didn't "beat the iron while it was hot" with the USSR (it didn't invade the USSR in 1945), despite the arms locker being more than full at the time.

In today's world, the US can pwn any non-nuclear country. The only military weakness of the US is with peacekeeping, but there's no need for kickass technology in this job.


It was 1943 or 1944 before the US was a credible fighting force on the ground because we demilitarized after WWI.

Perhaps the Korean War could have been avoided if we had sufficient conventional deterrent that we threw away after WWII (true, that is primarily China, not Russia).

kronic is offline kronic
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS


Those are mutually exclusive goals. I would heartily support the abolishment of the draft where it exists in Europe. But that means you are moving to a professional force, which is much more expensive.

Depends on how many soldiers we'd want to keep. The Bundeswehr currently has some 250,000 soldiers. Only 50,000 of them are conscripts. I don't think we would have to spend more, if we only kept 100,000 professional soldiers.

PS: It is likely that we will have an increase in military spending though (medium/long term). The military lobbyists and all those Weltpolitik nuts are increasing their pressure.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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Isn't it harder to recruit volunteers in Europe?


Aren't soldiers looked down upon in general?

kronic is offline kronic
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Yes, it's harder but it's not impossible. It's certainly not a big problem to find 100,000 or 200,000 people, especially considering the current economic troubles.

quote:
Aren't soldiers looked down upon in general?

Yes. Military people are normally seen as losers.

DanS is offline DanS
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Not in the UK. Not in France. AFAIK.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by kronic
Yes, it's harder but it's not impossible. It's certainly not a big problem to find 100,000 or 200,000 people, especially considering the current economic troubles.


Yes. Military people are normally seen as losers.


Good point.

Most of our soldiers are recruited out of poor neighborhoods.

kronic is offline kronic
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But in Germany.

DanS is offline DanS
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I think that's a shame.

DanS is offline DanS
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What's "weltpolitik"?

Flip McWho is offline Flip McWho
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Ted Striker
It does seem like America is going well at least no where, they aren't adjusting for an everchanging world, too busy trying to believe that everyone is kinda like them deep down somewhere. But eh, time will sort things out.

Personally I don't see the need for individual European states to have armies anymore, they might as well start decommissioning and then setting up a collective EU Army, they're heading that ways by the looks of it anyways.

DanS is offline DanS
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quote:
Personally I don't see the need for individual European states to have armies anymore, they might as well start decommissioning and then setting up a collective EU Army, they're heading that ways by the looks of it anyways.


This would be fine, but that would mean a more even sharing of the spending burden. Would Germany, et al. be fine with spending a lot more money on defense?

Flip McWho is offline Flip McWho
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Probably not at the moment but as time passes and individual states become less and less then they possibly will

 
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