06-06-2005 20:38									#91
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If I see something that is false, is it a crime to point it out? Especially when it is so categorimatically stated?

	06-06-2005 20:44									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DanS We don't have a $220 billion per year national deficit. We don't spend $80 - $100 billion a year on star wars. Stop making numbers up. If you don't know the numbers, find out.

Alright Dan. It was late so I got the number wrong. Bush's deficit last year was $412.28 billion (I was way off and trying to do it by memory).

Edit: Screw it its not worth it.

	06-06-2005 20:46									#93
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DanS Without knowing the actual numbers, he's just pulling stuff straight from his ass. st the way the government works. It has always been thus.

Oh please! I got one number wrong (I typed a 2 instead of a 4) and you try to crusify me; if anything it should make you happy since it makes your beloved Bush look even better. Stop being a jerk.

	06-06-2005 20:49									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Bush's Star Wars program was advertised as $1 trillion over 10 years which comes to around $100 billion per year.

Where the hell are you getting this number? It's garbage. It's an order of magnitude off.

	06-06-2005 20:53									#95
	Support Apolyton

unfortunately....


Greece spends some 4% of its GDP on defense

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy...5&article=15057

	06-06-2005 20:56									#96
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That certainly wouldn't surprise me. To be honest, I forgot about Greece.

	06-06-2005 20:57									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

see che?

	06-06-2005 20:58									#98
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I guess the report forgot to mention Greece as well.

	06-06-2005 20:59									#99
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Last I heard, Greece wasn't Europe, jus a tiny corner of it.

	06-06-2005 21:02									#100
	Tired of ads?

I'd love to troll Paiktis on this, but the only other European countries with higher military spending as a percentage of its economy are Macedonia and Turkey. Definitely worth a mention.

Last edited by DanS on 06-06-2005 at 21:07

	06-06-2005 21:07									#101
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DanS I'd love to troll Paiktis on this, but the only other European countries with higher military spending as a percentage of its economy is Macedonia and Turkey. Definitely worth a mention.

Great the one doesn't exist and the other isn't in Europe. Yet more accurate information from DanS.

	06-06-2005 21:07									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The administration's current plan is to have three different launch phases with a peak cost of around $10 billion per year (their numbers but likely to be higher) through 2015. The problem is several administration officials including Donald Rumsfield have already come out in favor of a radically enlarged program designing it not to stop one or two incoming missiles but to provide a complete shield against larger threats like China's nuclear missiles. That would mean we'd need to be able to knock out several hundred missiles at once instead of just one or two. That's would mean cost per year would skyrocket.

Hopefully, the deficit will stop them from wasting even more money on this. In any event the CBO puts the cost for the three phases the Administration has already requested at $50 billion through 2015 not counting the space based sensors which Star Wars won't function without. That's just estimate the administration came up (not that those estimates are ever any where near correct and the true cost is always much higher) and is based on the assumption that the goal is to knock out one or two missiles at a time. Just what though. They'll try to expand it and that's where the costs will skyrocket.

Here's a report from 2000 which gives the numbers as $50 billion but I'd bet money that if we found a more recent report then it'd be much, much higher.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1984&sequence=0

	06-06-2005 21:08									#103
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That's probably because the article was talking about developed countries. Four percent of a third world country's GDP doesn't amount to much.

	06-06-2005 21:10									#104
	Remove this text

Thank you. Spending on Star Wars is at $10 billion a year and decreasing, not $100 billion a year.

	06-06-2005 21:10									#105
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Then why was the US included?

	06-06-2005 21:17									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by DanS I guess the report forgot to mention Greece as well.

I didn't read it to be honest. If it forgot about it, no problem. If it said that no european (EU) country spends more than 2% then it's an inaccurate article and its overall validity is compromised.

	06-06-2005 21:24									#107
	Increase Your PM Length

All told, Greece, Turkey and Macedonia are about $20 billion worth of spending a year. I agree that's a lot of money in the European context.

	06-06-2005 21:25									#108
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DanS Thank you. Spending on Star Wars is at $10 billion a year and decreasing, not $100 billion a year.

Currently. They want to expand it to be able to intercept multiple missiles at once which is going to require several new launch sites, more missiles, more control equipment etc...

Also the CBO says they $10 billion per year figure doesn't include space based systems which the administration has requested and which the Star Wars system won't function without. Lastly those figures are half a decade old. Newer figures would likely reflect the massive post 9/11 increases in spending plus the DOD's typical cost over runs.

	06-06-2005 21:26									#109
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by DanS All told, Greece, Turkey and Macedonia are about $20 billion worth of spending a year. I agree that's a lot of money in the European context.

I've learned not to take your posts at face value by now. So post credible link.

	06-06-2005 21:29									#110
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Actually, the article does say that there are four European countries that spend more than 2%. Dan just summarized incorrectly.

Although I might note that while Greece spent 4.4% of its GDP on military expenditures in 2003, that's still 20% less in absolute terms than Canada at 1.1% of GDP.

	06-06-2005 21:30									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Newer figures would likely reflect the massive post 9/11 increases in spending plus the DOD's typical cost over runs.

Newer figures don't show an increase. Rather, fiscal year '06 is showing a decrease due to the fact that the program hasn't shown success much lately and they're trying to figure out whether it makes sense to cut bait. Besides, the $10 billion is for all missile defense, not just Star Wars.

	06-06-2005 21:41									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Although I might note that while Greece spent 4.4% of its GDP on military expenditures in 2003, that's still 20% less in absolute terms than Canada at 1.1% of GDP.

Hopefully some day it will also fall to 1,1% and below. Because the burden is proportional.
I don't see why Canada needs an army though. It is not in a dangerous neighborhood and if its only neighboor ever wanted it, Canada is beyond hope. So even 1,1% seems too much. (never mind noone knows where that "country" is exactly, or for what )

	06-06-2005 21:51									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Hopefully some day it will also fall to 1,1% and below. Because the burden is proportional. I don't see why Canada needs an army though. It is not in a dangerous neighborhood and if its only neighboor ever wanted it, Canada is beyond hope. So even 1,1% seems too much. (never mind noone knows where that "country" is exactly, or for what )

Nah, they need it seriously since they are trying to make a claim on the danish Hans Island - unfortunately, they haven't any ships that are able to reach it

	06-06-2005 22:14									#114
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Yeah you're right. How are they ever going to get to the top of the Killing People League with that kind of apathy. They should really put more effort into their death-dealing infrastructure. Especially now with all the instability in the region, it's never been more vital that these democracy loving sovereign nations be able to inflict rapid and efficient destruction and slaughter in any situations.

Deathdealing infratstructure would be things like slaughterhouses (concetration camps for humans). Military equipment isn't designed to deal or create death. It's designed allow the completion of objectives in the face of intelligent opposition.

Perhaps part of europes problem is the prevalence of people who do not recognize this important distinction.

	06-06-2005 22:23									#115
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Deathdealing infratstructure would be things like slaughterhouses (concetration camps for humans). Military equipment isn't designed to deal or create death. It's designed allow the completion of objectives in the face of intelligent opposition.

Yeah blah blah, I hate this military language so much... it's just nice words for dropping a nuke on a million people

Hey man, you're the only survivor, but you know, this bomb wasn't designed to create death, it's just that this city was full of intelligent objectives and since this poses opposition to our simple minds, we can't let them live *spits*

	06-06-2005 22:32									#116
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Hopefully some day it will also fall to 1,1% and below. Because the burden is proportional. I don't see why Canada needs an army though. It is not in a dangerous neighborhood and if its only neighboor ever wanted it, Canada is beyond hope. So even 1,1% seems too much. (never mind noone knows where that "country" is exactly, or for what )

I actually wish we spent more on our military - closer to tune of 2%. I think we need more personnel and better equipment so that we can resume taking a leading role in peacekeeping operations.

	06-06-2005 22:32									#117
	Suffering from ads?

Geronimo: What's the use, for Europe, to increase its defense spending? The only potential threat in the coming decades is a revanchist Russia, but our nuclear deterrence makes it extremely unlikely that it attacks us.

So, against whom should we be so prepared?

	06-06-2005 22:35									#118
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Who thought 5 years ago that we would be fighting in Afghanistan? Further, who thought the weapon most used would be dumb bombs guided by cheap high-tech systems (that, as far as I know, is a US/UK capability only)?

We should be humble about the limits to our foresight.

Last edited by DanS on 06-06-2005 at 22:45

	06-06-2005 22:37									#119
	Support Apolyton

quote: Geronimo: What's the use, for Europe, to increase its defense spending? The only potential threat in the coming decades is a revanchist Russia, but our nuclear deterrence makes it extremely unlikely that it attacks us.

I've asked this question three times now. No-one has been able to provide a better answer than NYE, who implied that another Hitler would arise.

	06-06-2005 22:37									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by DanS What's "weltpolitik"?

Weltpolitik (translates to nothing more than world politics) is a term that describes the German quest of becoming a world power in the Wilhelminian Era (1888-1918) and relating (interventionist) policies.

There's a growing desire to have a say in a lot of world affairs these days. The application for a permanent seat in the UNSC is a symbol for this. Another sign is the increased presence of German soldiers all over the world. And the government already plans the next steps. Our minister of defense, Peter Struck, demanded last weekend, that we should prepare for sending soldiers in war zones (and dealing with the unavoidable casualties). Germany once had a "civil power" approach to world politics. It's kind of ironic, that it is a red-green government (i.e. the former pacifists) that bascially replaces it with a conventional approach. That said, I'm convinced that the next government (especially, if it is led by the Conservatives) will increase military spending.