06-06-2005 07:26									#31
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quote: JohnT: If Europe doesn't spend the money, that usually means we're spending the money. Are you cool with that?

I'm cool with it. The US is strong enough to defend our allies as well as ourselves.

What I'm not cool with is the huge amount of ass plowing that our defense industry does to the military and then the military does to the tax payer. Or how the administration has a huge boner for war.

But they're unrelated concepts. We can defend Europe without getting screwed ourselves, and we can have a well kept military without laying waste to every unfriendly oil-rich nation.

	06-06-2005 07:41									#32
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yeah DanS, our military spending is at the right level - we spend more than 50% of total world expenditures on military by ourselves. thats exactly the right level to be at.

	06-06-2005 07:43									#33
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Lawrence so the US should not be defensively prepared?

	06-06-2005 07:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia yeah DanS, our military spending is at the right level - we spend more than 50% of total world expenditures on military by ourselves. thats exactly the right level to be at.

If you adjusted others' spending for purchasing power parity, I'm sure you would get a different picture of relative spending.

	06-06-2005 07:57									#35
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OK DanS

Please explain to me just who the Europeans have to be afraid of, and what likely uses for their military they are likely to face in the next 20 years.

Offhand I can think of UN interventions and the odd thing like the Ivory Coast. I can't think of anyone menacing Europe right now, nor anyone who would like to menace them. Russia is too busy trying to get some Euro action, and it is not at all in their interest to invade Europe.

Explain to me why they need to increase spending.

Right wing New Zealanders are always saying we need to spend more to protect ourselves, which is weird because New Zealand has no enemies.

	06-06-2005 07:58									#36
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Even if you had enemies, who in the heck could reach New Zealand in the first place?

	06-06-2005 08:03									#37
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I've found the answer:

	06-06-2005 08:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Even if you had enemies, who in the heck could reach New Zealand in the first place?

More to the point, why would they want to reach New Zealand?

	06-06-2005 08:28									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Ted Striker It does seem like America is going well at least no where, they aren't adjusting for an everchanging world, too busy trying to believe that everyone is kinda like them deep down somewhere. But eh, time will sort things out. Personally I don't see the need for individual European states to have armies anymore, they might as well start decommissioning and then setting up a collective EU Army, they're heading that ways by the looks of it anyways.

I can't imagine the kind of polyglot nightmere a single E.U. Army would be, even with the existing NATO framework.

	06-06-2005 08:59									#41
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quote: Lawrence so the US should not be defensively prepared?

so youre saying we need to spend more then half of the worlds total expenditures on defense to be safe?

quote: If you adjusted others' spending for purchasing power parity, I'm sure you would get a different picture of relative spending.

why should I care about relative spending? military spending is always absolute. I dont care if per capita England spends more then the US. its still aint **** compared to our lower per capita spending. you compare armies based on brute strength, not strength adjusted for GDP or population.

	06-06-2005 09:04									#42
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same with direct foreign aid to third world countries. do you think that since england donates 2% of their GDP to them that its worth more then the 0.1% of GDP that the US donates? hell no. theres a time and place for relative, and this is not one of them.

	06-06-2005 09:04									#43
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quote: so youre saying we need to spend more then half of the worlds total expenditures on defense to be safe?

For us plus Europe to be safe.

And considering how much teh US takes advantage of the rest of the world, ONLY doing half the spending is a risk.

	06-06-2005 09:06									#44
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quote: For us plus Europe to be safe.

europe can take care of itself - its a highly developed society and its up to them to sink or swim.

quote: And considering how much teh US takes advantage of the rest of the world, ONLY doing half the spending is a risk.

and the only reason we take advantage of the rest of the world is because of our way too big army.

	06-06-2005 09:10									#45
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quote: europe can take care of itself - its a highly developed society and its up to them to sink or swim.

Yeah, but we're not hurting for paying the cost. Not only does it not hurt us to cover Europe, but it keeps all the power in our own hands, which is better than risking and letting foreigners have some.

quote: and the only reason we take advantage of the rest of the world is because of our way too big army.

I don't think it's that circular. We take advantage of them because we have money. Army or no will not change that.

	06-06-2005 09:13									#46
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quote: Yeah, but we're not hurting for paying the cost. Not only does it not hurt us to cover Europe, but it keeps all the power in our own hands, which is better than risking and letting foreigners have some.

$400 bn in debt every year, plus a 7 trillion deficit sounds like hurting to me.
america is drunk with power and one day we're gonna wake up with the worlds biggest hangover (the size of rome's after the 4th century AD) i dont see why americans are so afraid of the world. why dont you trust anyone else?

quote: I don't think it's that circular. We take advantage of them because we have money. Army or no will not change that.

we have money, but standing around talking doesnt get us anywhere. money lets us have guns, which gives us more money, which gives us bigger guns. you never andorra invade anyone or march around with big armies to faraway places to impose their will. because they dont have enough money, or people.

	06-06-2005 09:18									#47
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quote: $400 bn in debt every year, plus a 7 trillion deficit sounds like hurting to me.

We're not in the shithole because of the military. We could have the same military capability as we do today and not be in the shithole. It's the management of the whole thing that has gotten us.

	06-06-2005 09:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Not in the UK. Not in France. AFAIK.

Can't say for the UK, but in France, military guys aren't looked up. At best, this is seen as another career path (nothing like the "defending our freedom" fetishism of the Yanks). And the military as a whole is still treated with distrust.

	06-06-2005 09:22									#49
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or we can cut $200 bn from the military and cut our deficit in half

	06-06-2005 09:29									#50
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BTW, I don't think the reason why the US military expenditures are so high are because of the protection of Europe. Your expenditures have skyrocketed ever since Bush started his Keynesian policies.

Don't get me wrong, Keynesian policies are great IMO. But I prefer Europe to invest in useful things.

	06-06-2005 10:01									#51
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quote: so youre saying we need to spend more then half of the worlds total expenditures on defense to be safe?

No, I'm saying that a dollar that we spend doesn't buy the same that it buys others. The Chinese have a standing army more than twice our size even though they spend far less on their military on an exchange rate basis, for instance.

	06-06-2005 10:04									#52
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yeah, like unemployment benefits!

	06-06-2005 10:06									#53
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quote: No, I'm saying that a dollar that we spend doesn't buy the same that it buys others. The Chinese have a standing army more than twice our size even though they spend far less on their military on an exchange rate basis, for instance.

and why would you think that the exchange rate basis between the US and china would be a good way to compare our two countries militaries?

	06-06-2005 10:12									#54
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quote: BTW, I don't think the reason why the US military expenditures are so high are because of the protection of Europe. Your expenditures have skyrocketed ever since Bush started his Keynesian policies.

The dirty little secret is that other than the War on Terror, Bush is not spending more on our military than did Clinton -- about 3.75% of our economy. Indeed, the basic structure of our military is virtually unchanged from Clinton to Bush.

The differences are: (1) Bush is aiming to keep the spending at 3.75% of our economy, while Clinton appeared to want to continue small reductions as a percentage of our economy for a somewhat larger peace dividend; and (2) Bush is realigning our basing around the world.

Despite what some may have you believe, we are a much less militarized society now than during the Cold War. We took a rather healthy peace dividend and that is not being reversed or even contemplated under Bush.

	06-06-2005 10:15									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia and why would you think that the exchange rate basis between the US and china would be a good way to compare our two countries militaries?

I don't. That's what a "we spend half of the world's military spending" comparison does.

	06-06-2005 10:16									#56
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quote: The dirty little secret is that other than the War on Terror, Bush is not spending more on our military than did Clinton -- about 3.75% of our economy. Indeed, the basic structure of our military is virtually unchanged from Clinton to Bush.

the OTHER dirty little secret is who cares? war on terror spending (and war on iraq, which IS NOT part of the war on terror) is part of military spending, whichever way you cut it. (note that the majority of the "war on terror" money goes to iraq, a country that has nothing to do at all with stopping terrorists. so you could call it the dirty little war hidden under the war on terror banner)

	06-06-2005 10:18									#57
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* DinoDoc wonders if he should go into book recommendation mode

	06-06-2005 10:19									#58
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The WoT only consists of about a fifth of our military spending. Besides, it's a one-off expense. That expense line will revert to zero one of these years.

	06-06-2005 10:20									#59
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I'll always bring in the nationalization angle into these discussion.

It seems that you're getting ripped off by your defence contractors all the time, in a rather rediculous way. I'd suggest establishing government corporations to do the same thing. Will be much cheaper in the long run.

	06-06-2005 10:20									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc * DinoDoc wonders if he should go into book recommendation mode

Recommend some good books.