06-06-2005 22:45									#121
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Europe should expand it's force projection power so it can play a meanful role in unexpected things like the wars of Yugoslav succession. Aren't you the slightest bit embarrassed that both in Bosnia and in Kosovo Europe couldn't handle the situation nor stop the genocide and had to come running to the US for help? Those interventions quickly became shows of American technological superiority while much of Europe was left with nothing to do until the fighting was over.

The recent unrest in Georgia, the unresolved issues in Armenia/Azerbigian, the possibility of several post Soviet Dictatorships falling apart in a messy fashion all point to the need for greater force projection power. Currently Europe has little to no heavy airlift capacity and must rely upon the US to move their forces around. Having the EU develop its own heavy lift aircraft will allow the EU to act more independently of the US and to better deal with problems in Europe's sphere of influence.

	06-06-2005 22:46									#122
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Washington is of the opinion that Europe should increase its military spending BUT only in the fields that Washington deems appropriate. Which means fields that will give mobility to the europen armies (most are static, defending territory armies) so that it can send it to places and the US wouldnt have to send so much. US also wants that without Europe developing a common voice for where those armies should go. or not go.

	06-06-2005 22:49									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DanS Who thought 5 years ago that we would be fighting in Afghanistan?

Who needs "system of systems", or extremely high-tech drones when fighting in Afghanistan?

The question is not a matter of where the west will intervene. The question is a matter of which military can threaten ours. Except for Russia, I can think of no military (lawful or not) that can possibly match the west's. China and India are decades behind, and they mostly progress thanks to reverse engineering for the time being.

	06-06-2005 22:50									#124
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Europe should expand it's force projection power so it can play a meanful role in unexpected things like the wars of Yugoslav succession. Aren't you the slightest bit embarrassed that both in Bosnia and in Kosovo Europe couldn't handle the situation nor stop the genocide and had to come running to the US for help?

It wasn't for a lack of projection power that we didn't intervene in Bosnia and Kosovo. The cause was political, as European countries were largely divided on the appropriate course of action, and thus they could do nothing (in a typical European way)

	06-06-2005 22:50									#125
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Washington is of the opinion that Europe should increase its military spending BUT only in the fields that Washington deems appropriate. Which means fields that will give mobility to the europen armies (most are static, defending territory armies) so that it can send it to places and the US wouldnt have to send so much.

Which isn't necessarily a bad idea. Suppose the EU decided it wanted to send a decent sized contigent to Darfur, or something really ugly flares up again in central Africa (I know, splitting hairs saying "again"). It might be nice to be able to get your troops and equipment there, no?

	06-06-2005 22:52									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Europe should expand it's force projection power so it can play a meanful role in unexpected things like the wars of Yugoslav succession. Aren't you the slightest bit embarrassed that both in Bosnia and in Kosovo Europe couldn't handle the situation nor stop the genocide and had to come running to the US for help?

I agree with Spiffor. The causes were primarily political. But how does this equate to needing much more than the standard UN contribution? That's what really happened in the Kosovo case, despite the fig leaf.

	06-06-2005 22:52									#127
	Tired of ads?

quote: Who needs "system of systems", or extremely high-tech drones when fighting in Afghanistan?

I don't even know what a "system of systems" is, so I couldn't hazard a guess. High tech drones have been of great value to us, especially lately. We're now buying drones hand-over-fist. But nothing has been of equal value, especially early on, to the laser-guided and GPS-guided dumb bombs.

AFAIK, the UK can hang with us on all of this stuff. Don't know about France, but the rest of NATO can't really hang with us.

	06-06-2005 22:57									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Europe should expand it's force projection power so it can play a meanful role in unexpected things like the wars of Yugoslav succession. Aren't you the slightest bit embarrassed that both in Bosnia and in Kosovo Europe couldn't handle the situation nor stop the genocide and had to come running to the US for help? I agree with Spiffor. The causes were primarily political. But how does this equate to needing much more than the standard UN contribution? That's what really happened in the Kosovo case, despite the fig leaf.

Oerdin's right. There was a lot of Euro wailing and gnashing of teeth about the fact that the US and UK were using weapons to which Europe didn't even have access. Whether or not you think this was just noise is another thing entirely, of course. The defense industry likes to be fed a hearty meal every now and then...

	06-06-2005 23:09									#129
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by DanS Who thought 5 years ago that we would be fighting in Afghanistan? Further, who thought the weapon most used would be dumb bombs guided by cheap high-tech systems (that, as far as I know, is a US/UK capability only)? We should be humble about the limits to our foresight.

You're fighting in Afghanistan because you decided to (and because you made a good targets for terrorists as you had troops stationed in Saudi and thus made easy recruitment fodder for them). And as a whole europe is sick of foreign military adventures, been there, done that, got the bloody t-shirt. I guess we're just further along our development as nation states, and this is your imperialistic phase (16-19th century for us).

Personally i think our main threat is a fascist (or christian fundamentalist expansionistic) US and even that's not particularly likely anytime soon.

	06-06-2005 23:14									#130
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Europe should expand it's force projection power so it can play a meanful role in unexpected things like the wars of Yugoslav succession. Aren't you the slightest bit embarrassed that both in Bosnia and in Kosovo Europe couldn't handle the situation nor stop the genocide and had to come running to the US for help? Those interventions quickly became shows of American technological superiority while much of Europe was left with nothing to do until the fighting was over. The recent unrest in Georgia, the unresolved issues in Armenia/Azerbigian, the possibility of several post Soviet Dictatorships falling apart in a messy fashion all point to the need for greater force projection power. Currently Europe has little to no heavy airlift capacity and must rely upon the US to move their forces around. Having the EU develop its own heavy lift aircraft will allow the EU to act more independently of the US and to better deal with problems in Europe's sphere of influence.

Why should intervene in another countries business? As long as it doesn't happen within the EU, why should we care? Why should it be our prerorgative to act? If the US wants to do stuff, feel free, I don't see why we sould be dragged into it, much better places to spend money on.

	06-06-2005 23:16									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The ideology of the islamofascists has a certain internal consistency. However, I think it's funny that apparently you believe you could get inside their heads, think like they do, and foresee something like 9/11. It took us a couple years after 9/11 to figure out what was going on. True, we were incompetent on the matter, but I think Europe's plans should contemplate equal incompetency on your side of the pond.

I wonder what would happen politically if a major European country got sucker punched like that, but had to rely on the US almost entirely to deal out its retribution.

	06-06-2005 23:18									#132
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Please don't make the same mistake Bush made by trying to lump Afghanistan together with Iraq. That's simply not an intelligent thing to do.

Afghanistan supported Al Qaeda and was thus directly involved in the 9/11 attacks so it wasn't a war of chopice but was instead the logical result of the US being attacked. Iraq was entirely a war of choice (and a bad one I might add).

	06-06-2005 23:34									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by lightblue Why should intervene in another countries business? As long as it doesn't happen within the EU, why should we care? Why should it be our prerorgative to act? If the US wants to do stuff, feel free, I don't see why we sould be dragged into it, much better places to spend money on.

Yes, of course. Why care if Genocide is being commited in Bosnia or Kosovo or Darfur? Why worry about stopping civil wars or protecting civilians? Why worry about possible governmental collapses in eastern Europe? I mean those are just funny looking foreigners aren't they?

	06-06-2005 23:37									#134
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Wouldn't an easier standpoint be something along these lines:

"If you attack us and it's proven that your country is behind it we will target the biggest 5 cities in your country and flatten them after 5 days warning so you can evacuate civilians."

Note that i am not against the use of military force (nuclear if necessary because they don't have the carriers etc) i just don't think we should really get involved in other countries as well. Money can be better spent elsewhere.

I mean obviously all this is a slight exaggeration, but really, to get and maintain massive projection power just in case someone kills less than 0.05% of our population sounds like an irrational thing to do.

	06-06-2005 23:43									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yes, of course. Why care if Genocide is being commited in Bosnia or Kosovo or Darfur? Why worry about stopping civil wars or protecting civilians? Why worry about possible governmental collapses in eastern Europe? I mean those are just funny looking foreigners aren't they?

Well.. maybe we (US, Europe, Russia, China) shouldn't sell them weapons before they start the genocides then. And Darfur is a crap example as you're not doing anything about it either, neither did any of us with Rwanda. The only reason people were interested in Kosova and Bosnia wa because they weren't funny looking foreigners. And the only reason you're interested in Iraq is a personal grudge and good investment opportunities.

And in a way why should we worry about civil wars/government collapses? Would you want Russian/Chinese troops on American soil if the US government ever collapsed or if there was a 2nd Civil War (theoretically obviously)? I doubt it, I am sure you'd want to sort things out yourselves. You wouldn't want an outside power interfering and propping up the side they though would suit their goals the best (think pipeline in Georgia and that sort of thing).

	07-06-2005 00:04									#136
	Full PM-box? Change here!

get off this 'percent of economy' garbage. its useless when comparing militaries, and their strengths.

	07-06-2005 00:10									#137
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: And in a way why should we worry about civil wars/government collapses? Would you want Russian/Chinese troops on American soil if the US government ever collapsed or if there was a 2nd Civil War (theoretically obviously)? I doubt it, I am sure you'd want to sort things out yourselves. You wouldn't want an outside power interfering and propping up the side they though would suit their goals the best (think pipeline in Georgia and that sort of thing).

What a dangerous approach.

	07-06-2005 00:26									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think you're more likely to antagonise people by interfering in their country than by not interfering.

	07-06-2005 00:31									#139
	Get a bigger avatar today!

And in that line of reasoning you're caring first and foremost for yourself. If that's your goal, sure.

	07-06-2005 00:34									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: "If you attack us and it's proven that your country is behind it we will target the biggest 5 cities in your country and flatten them after 5 days warning so you can evacuate civilians."

	07-06-2005 00:37									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sigged!

	07-06-2005 00:56									#142
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Deathdealing infratstructure would be things like slaughterhouses (concetration camps for humans). Military equipment isn't designed to deal or create death. It's designed allow the completion of objectives in the face of intelligent opposition. Perhaps part of europes problem is the prevalence of people who do not recognize this important distinction.

This is the sort of rhetorics that makes me sympathize with the pacifists. *vomit*

	07-06-2005 01:01									#143
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Merging the "who's gonna attack us?" and "who cares about brown people?" subthreads, the rational thing to do would be having less heavy units for territorial defense and more rapid response forces that could be sent to whatever hellhole needing getting blown up in short order. Great power projection capabilities need not necessarily spell greater military spending in total.

	07-06-2005 01:06									#144
	Increase the size of your Attachments

experience has taught that this sort of Rumsfeldian logic doesn't work. You need the heavy units so that you don't get blown apart.

	07-06-2005 01:50									#145
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Yes, I've become a little disillusioned with strictly realist foreign policy post 9/11. You're not the only one. Anyway, to address the topic, I'd much rather see Japan increase its military spending than Europe. Europe's days as the center of world events is long gone, while odds are good that the next century will be an Asian one. A reliable, militarily strong ally in the thick of world events is much better for the US than a fickle union of formerly influential states with the military strength needed to back up their delusions of grandeur. IMO, at least...

Well said.

	07-06-2005 02:01									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Maybe we should spend less on our military and stop invading places.

	07-06-2005 02:05									#147
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Az experience has taught that this sort of Rumsfeldian logic doesn't work. You need the heavy units so that you don't get blown apart.

The heavy units can't prevent anyone from getting blown apart on account of arriving in half a year.

A rapid response force might be of little use overseas for anything beyond policing duties. The heavies aren't useful for anything whatsoever overseas.

	07-06-2005 02:07									#148
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Europeans should get rid of their military all together, that way they can beitch about the USA's military more.

Besides, when ever the sh1t hits the fan they all look at the USA and go "so what are you gonna do about that?!" And then, the big ol' USA smashes whatever problem there is and everyone is happy, and the Europeans go back to insulting the USA for being "aggressive" and not "understanding" other cultures, even though there are more cultures in my one county then there are in most countries.

	07-06-2005 02:21									#149
	Support Apolyton

oh come on... you should have added the ranting smiley

	07-06-2005 02:25									#150
	Inflate your Upload Space

or the troll smiley