07-06-2005 02:39									#151
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I take it that you think that the UK and France spend too much on defense?

No, a wee bit of a blue-water navy is OK. Just so we don't forget how to build one.

Anyway, what's all this talk of defence? A credible scenario of Europe being attacked has yet to be mentioned. What this is about is America wanting more and better errand boys.

	07-06-2005 02:59									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Isn't it harder to recruit volunteers in Europe? Aren't soldiers looked down upon in general?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Can't say for the UK, but in France, military guys aren't looked up. At best, this is seen as another career path (nothing like the "defending our freedom" fetishism of the Yanks). And the military as a whole is still treated with distrust.

quote: Originally posted by kronic Yes, it's harder but it's not impossible. It's certainly not a big problem to find 100,000 or 200,000 people, especially considering the current economic troubles. Yes. Military people are normally seen as losers.

I guess that it depends on wich coutry you are taling about.

Here it isn't that big a problem to get voluteers, but it has nothing to do with kronics claims about economic troubles (we don't have that). Neither are there some bad feelings towards people choosing a military carrer - it's just as good as any other private or civilian job.

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Good point. Most of our soldiers are recruited out of poor neighborhoods.

We don't have that many poor neighbourhoods - besides, since we have conscripts, our recruitment for prof soldiers are more broad.

Upon that, the payment isn't that bad - the basic wage for a common grunt is about $3.200 a month (what is it in other countries ?). On top of that there are qualification, hot spot etc. but I haven't bothered to dig into that.

	07-06-2005 03:05									#153
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue You're fighting in Afghanistan because you decided to (and because you made a good targets for terrorists as you had troops stationed in Saudi and thus made easy recruitment fodder for them). And as a whole europe is sick of foreign military adventures, been there, done that, got the bloody t-shirt. I guess we're just further along our development as nation states, and this is your imperialistic phase (16-19th century for us).

I accept that this is your personal opinion, but please stop stating that it is a common viewpoint of "whole europe" - that is not true.

	07-06-2005 03:27									#154
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Why is it that Denmark participates in many military actions?

And as stated in response to Dan, I was talking about Germany. I don't understand how people can be uncomfortable with the reduced role of the military in Germany.

	07-06-2005 03:37									#155
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quote: Originally posted by kronic Why is it that Denmark participates in many military actions?

Some kind of international responsibility I guess.

quote: And as stated in response to Dan, I was talking about Germany. I don't understand how people can be uncomfortable with the reduced role of the military in Germany.

What I opposed to was

quote: And as a whole europe is sick of foreign military adventures

wich I belive is your peronal opinion - not someone shared generally.

About the general role of german military - well, I guess that depend very much upon how they act.

	07-06-2005 03:50									#156
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quote: And as a whole europe is sick of foreign military adventures

lightblue wrote that.

	07-06-2005 03:50									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It wasn't for a lack of projection power that we didn't intervene in Bosnia and Kosovo. The cause was political, as European countries were largely divided on the appropriate course of action, and thus they could do nothing (in a typical European way)

Even after the commitment was made to militarially intervine in Kosovo most of Europe couldn't effectively contribute. There were a few manned air strikes but all to often the nightly news showed the US or UK launching guided missiles at targets in Yugoslavia while the rest of NATO did little more then hold press releases.

Power project was a big problem for most of Europe then and it still is now.

	07-06-2005 03:53									#158
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Nah, they need it seriously since they are trying to make a claim on the danish Hans Island - unfortunately, they haven't any ships that are able to reach it

I'm sure they have a rubber dingy around some where.

	07-06-2005 03:56									#159
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quote: Originally posted by kronic lightblue wrote that.

You are of course not to be blamed for lightblues opinions - my fault.

	07-06-2005 03:59									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm sure they have a rubber dingy around some where.

I guess so, but they haven't a vessel that can handle the ice to get the dinghy into range - Hans Island is placed somewhere at the upper northwest point of greenland.

	07-06-2005 04:29									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Even after the commitment was made to militarially intervine in Kosovo most of Europe couldn't effectively contribute. There were a few manned air strikes but all to often the nightly news showed the US or UK launching guided missiles at targets in Yugoslavia while the rest of NATO did little more then hold press releases. Power project was a big problem for most of Europe then and it still is now.

Has to disagree slightly - both airforce and ground units from denmark was active. Especially our leopards made a good job in 94.

	07-06-2005 09:41									#162
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The ideology of the islamofascists has a certain internal consistency. However, I think it's funny that apparently you believe you could get inside their heads, think like they do, and foresee something like 9/11.

Terrorism is a serious threat, and it is actually the EU's common security policy's main concern.

However, considering that we deal with guys armed with cutters/old-school explosives/the odd dirty bomb, I don't see why we should need to develop the glitziest toys.

	07-06-2005 09:49									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Geronimo: What's the use, for Europe, to increase its defense spending? The only potential threat in the coming decades is a revanchist Russia, but our nuclear deterrence makes it extremely unlikely that it attacks us. So, against whom should we be so prepared?

I suppose you are justified in assuming that I advocate that Europe spend more on defense, given that I posted that part of europes problem was an inability to understand that war material /= death infrastructure.

However, I actually agree that too much is spent on military hardware. My complaint is not how much europeans are spending but rather their attitude towards such expenditures.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

	07-06-2005 10:15									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Deathdealing infrastructure would be things like slaughterhouses (concentration camps for humans). Military equipment isn't designed to deal or create death. It's designed allow the completion of objectives in the face of intelligent opposition. Perhaps part of europes problem is the prevalence of people who do not recognize this important distinction.

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Yeah blah blah, I hate this military language so much... it's just nice words for dropping a nuke on a million people Hey man, you're the only survivor, but you know, this bomb wasn't designed to create death, it's just that this city was full of intelligent objectives and since this poses opposition to our simple minds, we can't let them live *spits*

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist This is the sort of rhetorics that makes me sympathize with the pacifists. *vomit*

I see.

So given that you dismiss what I said as empty nauseating rhetoric you clearly believe that military equipment is designed with only one purpose. To kill people as efficiently as possible. Those who enlist in the military are exactly like SS soldiers who would volunteer to staff a concentration camp, eh? They both serve only to kill, right?

Given your assumptions that military equipment is designed exclusively to kill why hasn't the world gotten any better at it since ww2? You would think that if some 50+ million were killed in WW2 we would have done much much better than that by now in iraq! Why, every last Iraqi should be dead by now!


The rhetoric that really makes me sick, the rhetoric that is truly nauseating is the rhetoric of those who would pardon the unforgivable abomination of genocide as somehow just the default course and indeed final objective of any warfare.

	07-06-2005 13:40									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Good point. Most of our soldiers are recruited out of poor neighborhoods.

Untrue unless you define poor as below the income mean.

	07-06-2005 13:52									#166
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Wouldn't an easier standpoint be something along these lines: "If you attack us and it's proven that your country is behind it we will target the biggest 5 cities in your country and flatten them after 5 days warning so you can evacuate civilians." Note that i am not against the use of military force (nuclear if necessary because they don't have the carriers etc) i just don't think we should really get involved in other countries as well. Money can be better spent elsewhere. I mean obviously all this is a slight exaggeration, but really, to get and maintain massive projection power just in case someone kills less than 0.05% of our population sounds like an irrational thing to do.

Massive retaliation. One false move and boom! A lot cheaper than a flexible response capability. A lot less flexible too.

	07-06-2005 14:04									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Untrue unless you define poor as below the income mean.

What's your definition?

	07-06-2005 14:20									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I see. So given that you dismiss what I said as empty nauseating rhetoric you clearly believe that military equipment is designed with only one purpose. To kill people as efficiently as possible. Those who enlist in the military are exactly like SS soldiers who would volunteer to staff a concentration camp, eh? They both serve only to kill, right? Given your assumptions that military equipment is designed exclusively to kill why hasn't the world gotten any better at it since ww2? You would think that if some 50+ million were killed in WW2 we would have done much much better than that by now in iraq! Why, every last Iraqi should be dead by now! The rhetoric that really makes me sick, the rhetoric that is truly nauseating is the rhetoric of those who would pardon the unforgivable abomination of genocide as somehow just the default course and indeed final objective of any warfare.

I'm afraid you don't see. In the end weapons are made for bringing death and destruction. You can't separate both from eachother. And no - it doesn't mean that every soldier is automatically a killer, that is a totally different question. But noone should have illusions about the purpose of military weapons. You can rationalize all day long about how they are for defense against the evil guys or for something else, but that does not change the fact that in praxis they are for killing and for destroying stuff.

Oh, and I am not a pacifist.

	07-06-2005 14:25									#169
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My old reserve unit was staffed mainly with upper middle class white folks from the burbs. Nearly all of them were either college graduates, like me, or were attending college. About 25% of the unit had advanced degrees. Granted the reserves tend to attract more people who have university as a goal since the Reserves pay for college but it still shows how far off the mark many people are on this topic.

Over all their income level, even for those in their mid-20's, was probably higher then most Europeans in this forum. I'd say there is a whole lot of ignorance and prejudice in this thread about persons in uniform and few informed opinions.

	07-06-2005 17:02									#170
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@Geronimo: Try harder.

	07-06-2005 17:07									#171
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quote: The heavy units can't prevent anyone from getting blown apart on account of arriving in half a year. A rapid response force might be of little use overseas for anything beyond policing duties. The heavies aren't useful for anything whatsoever overseas.

That's only because you lack the capabilities to transfer them rapidly. Maybe you should develop them, instead, tsk tsk.

	07-06-2005 17:07									#172
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Wow, got sigged, had people slag me off. First time I've this kind of impression i think. Maybe i should stick to posting hyperbole style...

As for Blackcat, I guarantee you if you asked the general public in all european countries if they preferred more foreign military adventures or better hospitals/schools/roads you'd probably get close to 100% replying that they'd prefer the latter. Yes a lot of what I say is isolationist in scope (at least on military front, global trade and spread of ideas is a good thing), but i don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

	07-06-2005 18:56									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo So given that you dismiss what I said as empty nauseating rhetoric you clearly believe that military equipment is designed with only one purpose. To kill people as efficiently as possible.

The military has no other purpose but to kill. Pretending otherwise is just trying to guild a turd.

	07-06-2005 19:09									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: The heavy units can't prevent anyone from getting blown apart on account of arriving in half a year. A rapid response force might be of little use overseas for anything beyond policing duties. The heavies aren't useful for anything whatsoever overseas. That's only because you lack the capabilities to transfer them rapidly. Maybe you should develop them, instead, tsk tsk.

That would require a drastic rise of military expenditure, which just isn't going to happen unless people in the streets feel threatened, at which point we'd be focusing on territorial defense again.

Most Europeans don't see a need for the capacity to fight big wars overseas.

	07-06-2005 19:10									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Most Europeans don't see a need for the capacity to fight big wars overseas.

At least some people on this planet are sane.

	07-06-2005 19:38									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Terrorism is a serious threat, and it is actually the EU's common security policy's main concern. However, considering that we deal with guys armed with cutters/old-school explosives/the odd dirty bomb, I don't see why we should need to develop the glitziest toys.

I think that's a little too glib a response. Is Europe going to be cool without a capability of reaching out and dealing retribution when the time comes, such as Afghanistan? (In an amount of violence comensurate to that received, no nuking cities involved, etc.) Are Europeans all pacifists?

	07-06-2005 20:18									#177
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You say that as though being a pacifist is a bad thing. Also as long as the US is busy making itself as big a target as it can be why should they bother attacking Europe, especially if we stay out of it.

	07-06-2005 20:22									#178
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It was a question. Answer the question!

	07-06-2005 20:23									#179
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Because Europe is an easier target. Just look at your history. Europe has been hit by terrorists much more often than the US (at least an order of magnitude more).

	07-06-2005 20:35									#180
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think that's a little too glib a response. Is Europe going to be cool without a capability of reaching out and dealing retribution when the time comes, such as Afghanistan? (In an amount of violence comensurate to that received, no nuking cities involved, etc.) Are Europeans all pacifists?

No, Europeans aren't all pacifists.

Dealing retribution to a hellhole like Afghanistan doesn't require the capacity to land an armoured division on the other side of the earth in a hurry. America achieved rather more than retribution without using it.