12-06-2005 07:21									#61
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It kinda goes like this...


At first there was the infantry. The enemy developed a weapon (tank) to defeat infantry more easily. This was then countered by ATG's & TD's. Then came along other shat to defeat those new weapons.

Same with ships. At first was the cargo ship or merchant vessel. Then someone had the brilliant idea of building a ship with cannons on it to sink cargo ships. The other guy then built a bigger ship to counter the threat. This went on and on and on until someone came up with a super ship called the battleship.

get it?

	12-06-2005 07:37									#62
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Who are you talking to?

	12-06-2005 08:53									#63
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to those who question the need for a navy or the purpose of the ships.

	12-06-2005 11:10									#64
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quote: What travels along shipping lanes? (Transports.)

Transports do not carry freight.

	12-06-2005 17:55									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Didn't they need troops to actually project power, though?

Not necessarily. Marines were introduced (in Europe) by the Dutch and English navies in the 17th Century.

Navies had been projecting power beyond the local boundaries of states before then.

Even bombarding coastal towns can act as a deterrent against future hostility or to force one's will on powers far away from the homeland- the British in China or at Zanzibar, the Americans in Japan for instance.

Setting aside that, vessels could also interrupt the flow of trade between parts of a widely dispersed empire- as the Dutch and English did with Spain and Portugal, or the French in the Indian Ocean during the American War of Independence.

The United States owes a great deal to a French commander who was a bailli of Malta:

http://www.xenophongroup.com/mcjoynt/marine.htm#suffren


http://www.xenophongroup.com/mcjoynt/suffren.htm

	12-06-2005 19:41									#66
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@Kuci: In real life, one of the chief functions of navies is to keep the seas open to trade. In CivIII, that's for all practical purposes a non-issue.

	12-06-2005 22:06									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What travels along shipping lanes? (Transports.)

As others have said, transports aren't what would be on shipping lanes. Its just... shipping lanes aren't exactly in Civ. Oh Well.

	13-06-2005 01:46									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Mace We do. Just pull the worker off that tile, and let another city work that same tile instead.

That's not flexible enough for me. You're still being forced to make an unrealistic choice between optimal city placement and having enough coastal cities to develop a meaningful navy.

	13-06-2005 02:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @Kuci: In real life, one of the chief functions of navies is to keep the seas open to trade. In CivIII, that's for all practical purposes a non-issue.

That's protecting transports. The issue is that there isn't much in the way of piracy.

	13-06-2005 02:22									#70
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Not necessarily. Marines were introduced (in Europe) by the Dutch and English navies in the 17th Century.

IIRC the Greeks and Romans had marines that were used to board other ships..

quote: Even bombarding coastal towns can act as a deterrent against future hostility or to force one's will on powers far away from the homeland- the British in China or at Zanzibar, the Americans in Japan for instance.

I'm referring to ancient times. I assume there was very little significant bombardment from ships pre-gunpowder.

quote: Setting aside that, vessels could also interrupt the flow of trade between parts of a widely dispersed empire- as the Dutch and English did with Spain and Portugal, or the French in the Indian Ocean during the American War of Independence.

The problem is just that trade isn't represented physically very well in C3. It's possible to blockade a country, but it requires that every possible sea route be blocked.

	13-06-2005 02:23									#71
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quote: Originally posted by KyuuA4 Transports do not carry freight.

Yes they do

	13-06-2005 02:33									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's protecting transports. The issue is that there isn't much in the way of piracy.

I sure do hope you're not thinking that piracy is a non-issue in RL anymore. If so I recommend checking on the Malacca Strait...

	13-06-2005 02:52									#73
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I meant in civ.

	13-06-2005 03:57									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's protecting transports.

No it is not.

Protecting transports: Escorting military troop shipments (and the odd Settler).

Keeping trade lanes open: Making sure your overseas trade is not interrupted by enemy warships.

The later is pretty much a non-issue in CivIII, since the only way to impact overseas trade at all is physically blocking every single potential route, which is practically always more effort than it's worth. The result is that even with no navy at all, you can be reasonably confident that your overseas trade won't be impacted by a war against a naval power. This removes one of the major real-world incentives to build a navy.

	13-06-2005 04:01									#76
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Exactly. For a costal city, blockading its harbor takes at least three ships in Civ3. It's hardly worth bothering with. In the real world, enemy warships can intercept trade. Think about all the oil going from the Persian Gulf to North America and Western Europe. Now imagine if some country went on a rampage and started sinking those ships. That's why modern countries need a navy. This was not a factor in Civ3.

Since there were no fishing or other sea improvements in Civ3, protecting those was not required either - and fishing luckily is in Civ4, after all, it is a very important element for many countries. Hopefully there will also be some easier way to disturb overseas trade, making navies more needed.

	13-06-2005 04:44									#77
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Actually, blockading a coastal city can take any from 1 to seven ships.

	13-06-2005 08:54									#78
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quote: In CivIII, that's for all practical purposes a non-issue.

And that's because trade links are virtually guaranteed.

quote: Hopefully there will also be some easier way to disturb overseas trade, making navies more needed.

The only real way is to have vessels dedicated for shipping and trade - which gives that necessity to attack/defend trade ships.

quote: Transports do not carry freight.

Transports carry MILITARY units - not freight and cargo containing goods and services.

	13-06-2005 09:22									#79
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I guess we've been using the word differently. By transports I've been refering to "ships that transport stuff".

	13-06-2005 15:52									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Actually, blockading a coastal city can take any from 1 to seven ships.

The one instance when naval blocades are likely to be important is when a civ's only access to the oceans is via a "mediterranean sea" only connected to the ocean by a narrow straight that can be blocked by a couple ships. In C3C, the AI actually actively tries to control such chokepoints.

	13-06-2005 17:24									#81
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Giving navy more speed and making transport ships cheaper should increase the effect of a navy. If you can transport your troops faster and behind enemy lines with ships, that would make the transport more usefull.

Remember: horses: move 2, sailing ships move 4.
Horses on roads: moves 6. On rail-roads: infity. In civ 3
there is not much speed gained by adding ships. Speed is to slow for ships.

Also, I would like to see a patrol mode or zone of controll on your navy. If speed is increased, you can probably just move from one island to another island and just simply
go around the enemy ships. This severly limit the usefullness of those ships. If you only can kill the transport AFTER it has landed all it's units. A zone of controll would be very helpfull in that way.

Also, if a transport ship is damaged, so should the unit(s) that it carries. So that cannons bombarding transports would be nasty.

Aslo, Airports is to darn helpfull. Airports should be limited to transport 1 unit out or into the city. So a conquered city
on an enemy continent only could get 1 unit per turn. Also, if the enemy has a fighter nearby, air-transports and rebases should have a change to be interupted.

All I'm saying is that, it should not be to difficult to make navy usefull.

	13-06-2005 20:32									#82
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I approve of the idea of granting to each ship additional moves. It should not take ten turns to cross an ocean.

	14-06-2005 04:05									#83
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I think most people dont use navy because not have time to get done to win game in 450 or 1000 turn, nave too slow to get there while airport get you there fast before Score game is over

	14-06-2005 06:18									#84
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quote: Airports should be limited to transport 1 unit out or into the city.

Instead, Airports should have a limited range.

The 1 unit per turn was implemented in Civ 2; and that annoyed the hell out of me.

	14-06-2005 11:25									#85
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any thought to having an international airport as well

being capable of 2-3 units per turn?

1 is a bummer after awhile

	14-06-2005 19:51									#86
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An idea for galleys I would like is to give them a certain "range" from one of your ports, beyond which they sink just as if they did not end the turn in coastal waters. This can be extended with the Great Lighthouse wonder or with utilizing the ports of friends and allies, but I think it would serve the purpose of making the Age of Exploration period more a time of actual exploration. How many galleys after all circumnavigated major continents? This combined with added moves to caravels and other late age ships should open up the naval sphere enormously.

	14-06-2005 20:02									#87
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker Well, we have it confirmed that Firepower is KIND of back-in that the strength of a unit is related to how much damage a unit does-as suggested by Jaybe (and, I assume, each 'man' (hp) which makes up a unit can take a certain amount of damage before dying). This means that a Trireme-like a spearman-would be unlikely to get in more than a single hit before being wiped off the map by a modern unit. Yours, Aussie_Lurker.

I hope this is not the case. Imagine 100 African Warriors with spears rushing one American GI with a machine gun. He would not stand a chance.

	14-06-2005 20:37									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex any thought to having an international airport as well being capable of 2-3 units per turn? 1 is a bummer after awhile

Well, with Civ 3... you can launch 1 unit from N cities with airports and land at a city N times. Practically, y'can send a massive force into one city - on one turn.

quote: I hope this is not the case. Imagine 100 African Warriors with spears rushing one American GI with a machine gun. He would not stand a chance.

Well, that's a ground unit - and so, a smaller difference in strength would reflect that. That GI would probably be able to take out at least 10-20 of them with the machine gun before getting killed.

A trireme wouldn't even get close to a battleship just because of the battleship's range and firepower. And let's not forget the ship's armor.

	14-06-2005 23:34									#89
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quote: Originally posted by KyuuA4 A trireme wouldn't even get close to a battleship just because of the battleship's range and firepower. And let's not forget the ship's armor.

Would the radar actually read a galley/Trireme ?

could it sneek up to a battleship and board it


Now is that an idea anyone brought up...Boarding?

A bar of health, just before the ship goes under, have the option to board and capture or scuttle

	15-06-2005 00:47									#90
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unless i'm wrong, the lookouts/crew about a modern ship would spot a trireme approaching and just open up with one of the minor cannons.

They don't always need their high tech toys to destroy small things.