11-06-2005 00:08									#61
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Well, that's communists for you. Still, I like her analysis and observations, even I don't quite agree with her recommended solutions.

	11-06-2005 00:17									#62
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It's funny how anti-communists always try and point to the problem of shirkers as an example of cay communism will fail, and then point to efforts to combat shirking as slavery.

	11-06-2005 00:19									#63
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"shirkers"

	11-06-2005 00:23									#64
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Efforts to combat shirking are slavery IMHO. Politico-economic systems are definitely something that people should be able to choose themselves. Punishing people for something they didn't will or do onto themselves is wrong.

Being co-erced into a communist utopia by Marxist idealogues is no better than being co-erced into a capitalist utopia by Libertarian neo-Feudalist Randian Objectivists.

	11-06-2005 01:42									#65
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Alexandra Kollontai may describe the situation pretty well as it was in 1921, but I can't see any relevance as todays prostitution.

Women don't have to prostitute themself by marriage today - admitted a lot of *****es do it but as a shortcut to that they don't wan't to work for - not of nescessity.

Elder sisters don't have to prostitute themself to support large amounts of younger siblings.

Still there are plenty of prostitutes.

Certainly, many do it because of drug addiction, but they are far from being the main part.

	11-06-2005 02:46									#66
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Efforts to combat shirking are slavery IMHO. Politico-economic systems are definitely something that people should be able to choose themselves. Punishing people for something they didn't will or do onto themselves is wrong.

In a society of plenty, those who don't work aren't a drag on society. In revolutionary Russia at the time that Kollantai was writing, production had collapsed, they were under assault by 14 countries, and fighting a civil war, and had just finished fighting three years of WWI! A reasonable person might consider that to be something akin to exceptional circumstances which require exceptional measures.

	11-06-2005 03:00									#67
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In a society of plenty, those who don't work aren't a drag on society. In revolutionary Russia at the time that Kollantai was writing, production had collapsed, they were under assault by 14 countries, and fighting a civil war, and had just finished fighting three years of WWI! A reasonable person might consider that to be something akin to exceptional circumstances which require exceptional measures.

Surely, trying to gain and maintain power with force is certainly to be considered exceptional circumstances, and if anyone tries to oppose, exceptional measures are of course allowed.

	11-06-2005 03:04									#68
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Given that the Soviets were elected, they represented the will of the Russian people at the time the civil war broke out. The invading countries certainly had no mandate, nor did the generals who sought to reimpose the Tsar or make themselves dictator of Russia. No one was fighting to restore the unelected Provisional Government or the dismissed Constituant Assembly, regardless of how you might feel about those institutions. The only organizations in that war that had any legitimacy were the Soviets.

	11-06-2005 03:17									#69
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That might be, but sadly they forgot how they got that legitimacy, or rather, they dropped it because they would loose heavily and had to use supression to keep their power.

	11-06-2005 04:28									#70
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From the Kollantai article:

"The workers’ collective condemns the prostitute not because she gives her body to many men but because, like the legal wife who stays at home, she does no useful work for the society."

But Che says this is no longer the case, or is it the case of ideal communism, because there is plenty and shirkers can be tolerated. So, is prostitution and marriage where the wife stays at home, which commies contend is a form of prostitution, OK?

	11-06-2005 04:31									#71
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat That might be, but sadly they forgot how they got that legitimacy, or rather, they dropped it because they would loose heavily and had to use supression to keep their power.

I don't disagree.

	11-06-2005 04:35									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ned So, is prostitution and marriage where the wife stays at home, which commies contend is a form of prostitution, OK?

Without a money economy, for what could you prostitute yourself? Consider though that Kollantai was writing not about communism, but the proto-socialist society in which she lived, and in the formative years of that society.

As for wives (or husbands) staying home, if we have the abundence to allow it, I see no reason not to. One would hope they'd chose to develop themselves more fully, taking advantage of neighborhood or workplace based creches, however.

	11-06-2005 04:49									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Without a money economy, for what could you prostitute yourself? Consider though that Kollantai was writing not about communism, but the proto-socialist society in which she lived, and in the formative years of that society. As for wives (or husbands) staying home, if we have the abundence to allow it, I see no reason not to. One would hope they'd chose to develop themselves more fully, taking advantage of neighborhood or workplace based creches, however.

In a society where there was such abundance that noone had to work, would anyone actually work at all? Why even have schools? From the earliest age, people would just play and have fun.

But, truly, such a society cannot exist except in some fantasyland. So the concept of a requirement to work must be introduced. But this is where the vice of prostitution to a commie is exposed. The prostitute is a free-enterpriser, who does no productive work, and like a housewife, must be condemned.

So, in truth, communism will always condemn prostitution for the same reasons given by Kollantai. They trade sex for support and do not perform productive work.

	11-06-2005 04:55									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ned In a society where there was such abundance that noone had to work, would anyone actually work at all? Why even have schools? From the earliest age, people would just play and have fun.

Because humans are creative creatures who take pride in doing and accomplishing things. We fullfill our creative and productive emotional needs through work and it helps us to define a sense of self. Work does not have to be the drudgery that it is in class society. Furthermore, much of the repetitive, uninteresting work can either be automated or shared. For example, maybe each of us has to spend one day (obviously different days) a month collecting garbage for four hours. It may be more inefficient from a time and motion perspective to have everyone do it rather than have someone "specialize" in it, but is it really right to waste human potential specializing in collecting garbage?

Why would people learn? You have children, don't you, Ned? Don't they ask questions about how the world works, why things are the way they are? And of course, society has a material interest in ensure that the future generations are educated. Why assume we'll just sit around playing on an Xbox all day?

	11-06-2005 05:18									#75
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Che, so you suggest the average woman, between 13 and 23, would volunteer to perform sex services for men?

	11-06-2005 05:32									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, so you suggest the average woman, between 13 and 23, would volunteer to perform sex services for men?

Ned, you really has to tell the name of that mushroom you are (ab)using.

Not even ID/creationists are able to make such senseless and illogic iconclusions.

	11-06-2005 05:33									#77
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This is why I'm not participating in this thread.

	11-06-2005 05:54									#78
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Why does Che hate my wife, the stay at home mother?

	11-06-2005 06:33									#79
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Because he's a commie and therefore gay and therefore trying to destroy the families of America one by one.

	11-06-2005 07:23									#80
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Well, Che, the demand for sex will not go away unless the future commie is also neutered in some way. So, who will fill that demand?

	11-06-2005 09:35									#81
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Right in the middle of two bolded points: quote: All women who avoid work and do not take part in production or in caring for children are liable, on the same basis as prostitutes, to be forced to work. Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains! "Now wrap these... no, not "chains": you're mistaken, silly - this is the society of the worker... now wrap these "metal rings" around your ankles... ahh, that's it. Ready to go to work?"

Of course, they would have already starved to death in a capitalistic society, so there wouldn't be any problems at all in this regard.

	11-06-2005 09:36									#82
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Why does Che hate my wife, the stay at home mother?

Is she neglecting your precious?

	11-06-2005 10:33									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, Che, the demand for sex will not go away unless the future commie is also neutered in some way. So, who will fill that demand?

Try masturbation.

	11-06-2005 13:42									#84
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Doesn't prostution inherently deny communism ? The means of production of wealth ( in this case , the woman's body and skills ) are inseperable from its owner , and thus , because they cannot be communalised , communism fails in this area .

	11-06-2005 13:45									#85
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Doesn't prostution inherently deny communism ? The means of production of wealth ( in this case , the woman's body and skills ) are inseperable from its owner , and thus , because they cannot be communalised , communism fails in this area .

That's not what "means of production" is.

	11-06-2005 13:57									#86
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UR's reply has to be the most classic ever . . . .



Though another to the fact that on a forum for Civilisation , we can seriously debate the relationship between communism and prostitution .

	11-06-2005 15:45									#87
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quote: One would hope they'd chose to develop themselves more fully, taking advantage of neighborhood or workplace based creches, however.

Now, this is the sort of ignorant comment that pisses me off:

1. The purpose of parenthood is to develop the child.
2. This is such a time-consuming and exhausting task that only those without children can assume that one can just blithely "chose to develop themselves" - and has the time and energy to do it.
3. Learning about children and how to deal with them requires a great deal of development as one changes from a self-centered shmuck to a person concerned more about others.
4. Neighborhood "creches." Makes taking care of 10 0-5 year-olds sound as peaceful and as easy as tending a garden. "Creches."

And comments like this just fly in the face of reality:

quote: It may be more inefficient from a time and motion perspective to have everyone do it rather than have someone "specialize" in it, but is it really right to waste human potential specializing in collecting garbage?

So you want Godel, Escher, Bach, et al to become generalists, good at a lot of things but great in none? You think it's more of a waste of human potential to have people "specialize" in any endeavor (including the removal of waste) than to insist that nobody specialize at all - regardless of your aptitude in other fields? Rather than having a brilliant mathematician who does math and only math, you'd prefer a "pretty-good" mathematician who is spending much of his intellectual capacity removing trash, being a traffic cop, and whatever "menial" job you think is unworthy of "human potential?"

No wonder Communism is a theology of the workers and peasants - only people as ignorant as peasants can fall for such crapola... except for those who like to build intellectual castles with foundations made of sand.

	11-06-2005 15:49									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Of course, they would have already starved to death in a capitalistic society, so there wouldn't be any problems at all in this regard.

Really? Cite on the number of starving people in capitalist societies?

Or are you going to waste my time by counterarguing that "today's societies aren't capitalistic, that the expansion of the welfare state, blah blah blah. I'm talking in theory."

	11-06-2005 17:47									#89
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Doesn't prostution inherently deny communism ? The means of production of wealth ( in this case , the woman's body and skills ) are inseperable from its owner , and thus , because they cannot be communalised , communism fails in this area .

Troll? Or do you really misunderstand the concept so badly?

	11-06-2005 17:55									#90
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT No wonder Communism is a theology of the workers and peasants - only people as ignorant as peasants can fall for such crapola... except for those who like to build intellectual castles with foundations made of sand.

Communism is the society of plenty. Capitlalism is the society of underproduction, and undertraining.