11-06-2005 18:34									#91
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Again, the statements y'all make that fly in the face of the overwhelming historical evidence.

	11-06-2005 18:41									#92
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Again, the statements y'all make that fly in the face of the overwhelming historical evidence.

I was talking theoretically about communism, but factually about capitalism.

	11-06-2005 18:43									#93
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Nice dodge, that. Too bad nobody is buying.

	11-06-2005 18:44									#94
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Nice dodge, that. Too bad nobody is buying.

I'm not selling.

	11-06-2005 19:10									#95
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JohnT, if being a stay-at-home mother is so wonderful, fullfilling, and such a source of self-development, why did the cult of motherhood in the fifties produce the feminist revolution? Almost everywhere, across the world, when a revolution occurs, women demand freedom from the home.

	11-06-2005 19:13									#96
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT 4. Neighborhood "creches." Makes taking care of 10 0-5 year-olds sound as peaceful and as easy as tending a garden. "Creches."

You are aware that these things do exist and do work, aren't you?

True, neighbourhood creches exist in Commielands such as Sweden or France, but I believe that American babies aren't noticeably different from Eurocom ones.

	11-06-2005 19:20									#97
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As long as you give your paycheck to women they don't care about staying home all day.

	11-06-2005 19:22									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara JohnT, if being a stay-at-home mother is so wonderful, fullfilling, and such a source of self-development, why did the cult of motherhood in the fifties produce the feminist revolution? Almost everywhere, across the world, when a revolution occurs, women demand freedom from the home.

And you change the subject.

Typical.

Che, your statement rests on two points:

1. Stay at home moms don't "work" and are not "productive" or "fulfilling their potential." Your words.

quote: One would hope they'd chose to develop themselves more fully, taking advantage of neighborhood or workplace based creches, however.

2. Therefore, they must be forced to work as they are nothing but "shirkers." Again, your words.

Actually, the "forced to work" is Kollontai's words. But you seem to agree with them, both overall and in their specific historical placement.

You aren't allowing at all for the fact that many stay at home mothers, in fact, love what they do. And choose it. You'd rather force them to leave their kids to... pick up garbage, from what I gathered of your other statements.

Again, the womens movement was about choice. The choice to stay at home or the choice to work. The choice to have an abortion or the choice to have the baby. The situation you're talking about is a situation where women didn't have the choice and rebelled accordingly. But they didn't have the womens movement just because they didn't want to hang with their kids.

It's sad that I have to explain that to you - you seem rather enlightened in spite your rigidly authoritarian belief system.

And Spiffor? We have those too. We just call them "day care." You say Tomato, I say Tomahto.

	11-06-2005 19:29									#99
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Che, your statement rests on two points:

And you're deliberately trying to make the most sinister interpreation you can.

	11-06-2005 19:29									#100
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quote: JohnT, if being a stay-at-home mother is so wonderful, fullfilling, and such a source of self-development, why did the cult of motherhood in the fifties produce the feminist revolution?

Pot, this is kettle. Kettle, pot.

	11-06-2005 19:45									#101
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JohnT,

Does your wife get an allowance? Can she spend whatever she wants freely? Who controls the money and in what proportion?

Last edited by Kidicious on 11-06-2005 at 20:17

	11-06-2005 20:15									#102
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT And Spiffor? We have those too. We just call them "day care." You say Tomato, I say Tomahto.

I'm sorry if English is a foreign language for me, and if the word I learned for this is "creche", considering that's it's exactly like in French, and that's how the thing is called in SMAC.

So, what exactly is so laughable about creches/day cares?

	11-06-2005 20:47									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious JohnT, Does your wife get an allowance? Can she spend whatever she wants freely? Who controls the money and in what proportion?

No.

Yes.

Her. I allow myself a $60 allowance a week.

Of course, it's not as if it's all discretionary - bills, mortgage, investments, etc.

	11-06-2005 20:49									#104
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Really? Cite on the number of starving people in capitalist societies?

quote: 1 Thirty-five million people-including 13.1 million children-live in food insecure households that experience hunger or the risk of hunger. This represents approximately 12.5 percent of the US population. 1 2 3.4 percent of U.S. households experience hunger: they frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. 9.4 million people, including 3.1 million children, live in these homes. 1 3 12.5 percent of U.S. households are at risk of hunger: they have lower quality diets or must resort to seeking emergency food because they cannot always afford the food they need. 25.5 million people, including 13.1 million children, live in these food insecure homes. 1

link

When I was in the US, I frequently saw homeless people, many of them begged for scraps of food.

So unless this is a pathetic attempt at dismissing a widely known social problem, I have no idea what else you could be getting at.

	11-06-2005 20:51									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Troll? Or do you really misunderstand the concept so badly?

I'd say both.

	11-06-2005 20:54									#106
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Actually, the "forced to work" is Kollontai's words.

Somehow you are missing half of the sentence:

quote: All women who avoid work and do not take part in production or in caring for children are liable, on the same basis as prostitutes, to be forced to work.

I have emphasized it for you, John. So what is this you are getting at again?

	11-06-2005 21:26									#107
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I allow myself a $60 allowance a week.

Do you really think she earns that money? Most people would say no (with the exception of the people here who will always disagree with ME no matter what I say).

	11-06-2005 21:28									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious (with the exception of the people here who will always disagree with ME no matter what I say).

Yep, if you were to say that the sun rises in the east, its a good bet that many of the sagacious here would be looking for it in the other direction.

	12-06-2005 19:22									#109
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The foolish wouldn't look. They would assume that they sum rises in the West.

Last edited by Kidicious on 12-06-2005 at 19:29

	12-06-2005 23:16									#110
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Well, if there are no prostitutes and no strippers and no porn and sex is for "romantic" love only, as a woman wants it, then the future communism is not a happy place for men.

	14-06-2005 05:41									#111
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I don't think housewifery is a problem in itself. The problem is that it isn't recognised as legitimate work.

	14-06-2005 05:57									#112
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It should. It's quite a lot of work to be a housewife. (No, not from personal experience, although I can just look at my mom (a housewife) and see how hard she works for our family.)

Personally I think that there should be some incentive for a parent to stay at home to be a housemom/dad and care for the kids, rather than having a neccesity to have two working parents. I'm not of the "Women's place is in the home" types, but I do realize the benefits of housewifery, especially for children.

	14-06-2005 08:33									#113
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Sure it's work, but it's just taking care of yourself or your own children.

	14-06-2005 09:08									#114
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Why does Che hate my wife, the stay at home mother?

Uh, you are confusing me with Che again...

	14-06-2005 09:11									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor So, what exactly is so laughable about creches/day cares?

For-profit-lowest-bidder daycares are crap.

	14-06-2005 09:16									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Sure it's work, but it's just taking care of yourself or your own children.

Methinks the utilitarian value of good parenting (in the long run) is quite significant.

There are different ways to organise a family (see: Trobriand Islands, Kibbutz etc), but its generally agreed that babies are helpless, vulnerable and complete dependent, and thus require close attention and care.

Whether a mother does it unpaid, or a nanny does it paid... it is the same volume of work, with the same purpose.

	14-06-2005 09:19									#117
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So this is why Communism will never work: No prostitutes.

	14-06-2005 18:51									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II I don't think housewifery is a problem in itself. The problem is that it isn't recognised as legitimate work.

Because it, like prostitution, is somewhat out of control of central planning. Communism doesn't like marriage for a number of reasons, but the fact that it provide people, especially women, with a support system independent of the state is a major problem to totalitarians.

It is interesting to see the commies here squirm over the issue of marriage. They seem to be of two minds on the issue.

	14-06-2005 19:27									#119
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Marriage in a nutshell is an economical alliance to create the environment and social security to procreate and raise children. With the emancipation of women and their increasing integration in job and business, and with fiscal subsidies for single parents in many countries, it is increasingly losing its purpose already now, under capitalism. That's why in many developed countries the number of weddings per year is massively in the decline, despite temporary pikes.

Under communism, the economical need to create said alliance is gone and thus, marriage will most likely either vanish completely, or will transform more in the direction towards what cohabiting is today.

	14-06-2005 19:37									#120
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No doubt, Sir Ralph, just at social security for the elderly decreases the incentive to have kids. Thus the population stagnation in "rich" welfare-state countries.