10-06-2005 23:04									#61
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BTW this will be a good thing in the long run. Once an auto company is dead it is almost impossible to start a new one (last successful auto start up in the US was 1927 with Chrysler) so it is better to give companies time to reform so as to preserve competition in the market place.

	10-06-2005 23:06									#62
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The way to preserve competition is for GM and Ford to go bankrupt. They can then set up their businesses on a rational (i.e., more or less profitable) long-term basis.

	10-06-2005 23:09									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Japanese strategy works better.

It doesn't hurt that Japan continues to have one of the most protected auto markets in the world. Even new car dealerships must be approved by the national government instead of just local officials and the Japanese still keep cars waiting at docks for up to 6 months for "safety inspections". The Japanese are masters of nontarrif trade barriers.

You can say the Japanese make a better product and they would have won in a fair competition anyway, but, doesn't that mean the foreign automakers should still at least get a chance to sell their products in Japan at volume? Even those cars they let in the country they tightly control supply so that market share often remains below demand. Check out how BMWs and Mercedes-Benz lurury cars are almost always back ordered and have been for decades yet some how the Japanese government keeps finding excuses to keep supply low.

	10-06-2005 23:10									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The way to preserve competition is for GM and Ford to go bankrupt.

So you're solution to maintaining long term competition is to... end competition? Survey says...BUZZ!!!

You're just going to have to suck it up for a few model years then we'll all enjoy a stronger more competitive market for the decades because their will be more cars being offered from more manufacturers.

	10-06-2005 23:15									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Colon I agree, American business wouldn't know what a long-term view is if you'd hit it in the face.

Unfo4rtunately this is often true. American capitalism suffers from the dementia that if profits can be raised a bit in one quarter then it should be done even if that means a perminent long term reduction in profits. That's short sighted and it harms the nation. Of course the raiders just take their one time profit then sell the stock so their happy but the reality is this takes healthy companies and destroys their value.

	10-06-2005 23:16									#66
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Toyota is raising prices because they can. Like they really want to help GM and Ford.

	10-06-2005 23:18									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Toyota is raising prices because they can. Like they really want to help GM and Ford.

I guess you didn't read the BBC article a few months back where Toyota's CEO said he was deathly afraid of protectionist action by the US and that he believed the best thing Toyota could do was raise prices in order to give GM breathing room (he didn't mention Ford).

	10-06-2005 23:22									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So you're solution to maintaining long term competition is to... end competition? Survey says...BUZZ!!! You're just going to have to suck it up for a few model years then we'll all enjoy a stronger more competitive market for the decades because their will be more cars being offered from more manufacturers.

You must not know what bankruptcy means. It doesn't often mean going out of business. It means going in a court-protected restructuring of your liabilities so that your business can become sustainable. In GM and Ford's case, this would mean that the labor contracts that force GM and Ford to pay laid-off employees 90% of their normal wage not to work would go by the wayside, for example.

	10-06-2005 23:28									#69
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... And then Oerdin will be here complaining about how the workers are getting a screwing.

	10-06-2005 23:30									#70
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I've already resigned myself to getting a screwing once the GM and Ford pensions are picked up by the federal government. All US taxpayers will be taking a haircut on this.

The workers are helping to kill the company and I have no sympathy for them. If there's a screwing going down, then they need to help themselves to their share.

	10-06-2005 23:34									#71
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I wouldn't even buy one of their cars, let alone the whole company.

GM has the #1, #2, #3 plants in North America in J.D. Powers Quality rankings. I'm afraid there are a lot of people out their who think like you who think they're still living in the 1970's or 1980's and who just don't know the reality of modern results. It's a pity.

	10-06-2005 23:37									#72
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What everybody means by crappy cars is that they're not luxurious rather than unreliable. GM and Ford build reasonably reliable cars.

	10-06-2005 23:39									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I guess you didn't read the BBC article a few months back where Toyota's CEO said he was deathly afraid of protectionist action by the US and that he believed the best thing Toyota could do was raise prices in order to give GM breathing room (he didn't mention Ford).

I know the difference between what people say and what they mean. You think they are going to say they are raising prices to make more money?

	10-06-2005 23:41									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What everybody means by crappy cars is that they're not luxurious rather than unreliable. GM and Ford build reasonably reliable cars.

	10-06-2005 23:42									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia American cars are crap. there is no 'luxery' in american cars at less then $45,000. its all plastic garbage. even the pistons are made out of plastic.

Jesus H. Christ! That is some ignorant talk. There has never been a plastic piston and GM is currently pawning EVERY SINGLE FREAKING LAST ONE OF THE EUROPEAN AUTOMAKERS when it comes to quality! That'
s right there isn't a mass market automaker which does as good a job in quality that matches much less passes GM. GM also pawns the **** out of nearly all of the Japanese automakers as well when it comes to quality. Only Toyota and Honda does better so that leaves around 11 Japanese makers who are sucking GM's tail pipe.

I just find it so funny that Euro's mass market cars are such total crap that they get beaten by Koreans in quality studies yet ignorant Euros still try to bad mouth Amnerican cars. That's just stupid.

BTW if the EU wasn't a hugely protectionist POS nearly every European automaker (bare a few high end makes) would be dead by now. Europe is still the most protected big automarket on Earth (though the Japanese are sneaky qabout using nontarrif barriers).

	10-06-2005 23:44									#76
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Deja Vu.

Oerdin, do you still make the assumption that "3 years" is "long term ownership"?

American cars tend to fall apart after their warranty expires. Fact of life.

	10-06-2005 23:44									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What everybody means by crappy cars is that they're not luxurious rather than unreliable. GM and Ford build reasonably reliable cars.

Basically what they're saying is they prefer a different style. That has zero to do with reliability because if reliability was the only factor the Toyota, Honda, and GM would be the only makers still in the market.

	10-06-2005 23:45									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Deja Vu. Oerdin, do you still make the assumption that "3 years" is "long term ownership"? American cars tend to fall apart after their warranty expires. Fact of life.

Asher is still making stupid claims based upon a nonscientific study. Only people who want to write in to that crap study are included so it is not in any way an example of satistical sampling. You know it; I know it.

	10-06-2005 23:47									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin GM has the #1, #2, #3 plants in North America in J.D. Powers Quality rankings. I'm afraid there are a lot of people out their who think like you who think they're still living in the 1970's or 1980's and who just don't know the reality of modern results. It's a pity.

This is true -- Canada is #1 in making cars with initial quality.

#2 and #3 are American plants.

These plants make the well-known reliable vehicles such as the Chevy Impala and Monte Carlo.

The initial quality surveys are pretty pointless. The real concern with cars is their longterm reliability, after the warranty expires. That's where American cars do absolutely terrible compared to Toyota/Honda.

	10-06-2005 23:47									#80
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT ... And then Oerdin will be here complaining about how the workers are getting a screwing.

**** the workers. I don't care about workers. I care about choices and competition in the market place which doesn't happen if we don't properly manage things. The Japanese know this and it is one reason they've done so well.

	10-06-2005 23:49									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Asher is still making stupid claims based upon a nonscientific study. Only people who want to write in to that crap study are included so it is not in any way an example of satistical sampling. You know it; I know it.

Only the people who want to talk to a telemarketer/surveyer answer for the JD Powers & Associates studies, yet you hype them up all the time.

Non-response bias is possible in both cases.

The difference being, every single statistically significant study has shown that American cars fare worse than Japanese in long-term reliability.

At some point you need to stop the ridiculous assertion that for some reason only Japanese-car buyers are sending in good reports and American-car buyers refuse to, and think about the implications...

3-year studies are not long term, period. Especially when they're plagued by non-response bias as well.

	10-06-2005 23:52									#82
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Brilliant move by the Japanese. If Ford and GM go under, you can bet the protectionists will be up in arms and any raising of tariffs will hurt Toyota more than raising the price now so they sell a little bit more.

And they look good.

	10-06-2005 23:52									#83
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Don't Fez my thread!

(not directed at Imran)

	10-06-2005 23:52									#84
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Damn, this one's turning into a pissing match...

* JohnT grabs some popcorn.

	10-06-2005 23:54									#85
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Don't worry, Asher. Someday, you too will be able to afford a new car and get to stop worrying about 4+ year QC standards.

	10-06-2005 23:54									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The initial quality surveys are pretty pointless. The real concern with cars is their longterm reliability, after the warranty expires. That's where American cars do absolutely terrible compared to Toyota/Honda.

Compare all Japanese cars to all European cars to American cars and domestics do damn well. It is funny how you pick just the best two Japanese makes and you ignore the other 11 which get their asses handed to them. Secondly you are still full of **** on you baseless claims that "American cars fall apart after their warranty is up". You've been repeatedly pawned on and been shown that it is nothing more then your tackless and baseless opinion. Even Ming laughed his ass off at you.

Feel free to trot out the same crappy nonscientific survey which we've debunked a half dozen times before. We both know that what qualifies as good or bad isn't defined at all in that survey nor does it take a satistical approach in order to prevent systematic errors in data collection. A satistical approach was taken by J.D. Powers though and surprise, surprise you get pawned again.

	10-06-2005 23:54									#87
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I'm just perplexed how Oerdin can defend a study that involves a telemarketer calling random households, asking them which car they have and how many defects they've had...while at the same time dismissing Consumer Reports consistent findings.

	10-06-2005 23:54									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui you can bet the protectionists will be up in arms and any raising of tariffs will hurt Toyota more than raising the price now so they sell a little bit more.

10-1 Toyota's profits increase.

	10-06-2005 23:55									#89
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Who cares about a goddamn quality study? It doesn't relate to this thread.

	10-06-2005 23:56									#90
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Actually, it does provide some background as to why this is happening.