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Colon
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Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
American consumers are being victimized by the Japanese long-term managed capitalism view! |
Protectionism and mercantile patriotism is alive and kicking in the US: quotas on Chinese textile imports, the bailout of American airlines, farm subsidies... If Toyota openly runs GM and Ford into the ground there IS a high risk of a backlash.
And tell me, would it the consumer's interests if there is going to be such a backlash? I very much doubt so.
In an ideal world politics and business are separated, this however isn't an ideal world. So, don't blame Toyota, blame the special-interests' groups crowding Washington DC clamoring for protection of one kind or another.
Last edited by Colon on 11-06-2005 at 01:12
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:33
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If GM and Ford raise their prices this could be illegal price fixing.
Price remarks by Toyota chief could be illegal
quote:
By James R. Healey, USA TODAY
For the second time in about two weeks, the chairman of Toyota Motor in Japan said the automaker is likely to raise U.S. prices and give struggling Detroit car companies room to raise theirs — a comment U.S. antitrust experts say is ill-advised and borders on illegal.
Inviting competitors to match your price increases can be illegal "price signaling," says lawyer Jim Weiss, former head of an antitrust unit at the Justice Department and now in private practice at a law firm specializing in antitrust.
If rivals don't follow, no violation. "But it invites the government to look into what you're doing. When the government looks into what you're doing, they frequently find something, even if it's not what they intended," he says.
Toyota Chairman Hiroshi Okuda, speaking in Osaka, Japan, made his most recent price comment after General Motors announced Tuesday that it will close plants and cut 25,000 jobs by 2008 to get its North American auto operations in the black. GM lost $1.3 billion in North America the first quarter.
GM had no comment on Okuda's remarks, which were reported by Japan's Kyodo News and published on U.S. newswires.
Mike Michels, spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales, the automaker's main U.S. unit, says prices might rise because of higher costs or additional features, but "There're not going to be any arbitrary price increases. That's not how we do pricing. I don't think Chairman Okuda meant it that way."
Okuda's reasoning both times, according to wire reports, has been that U.S. automakers can improve earnings if they charge higher prices. He said he's afraid that financial trouble among Detroit car companies will be blamed on tough competition from Japan-based automakers, creating an anti-Japan backlash that could hurt sales.
Toyota is the biggest Japanese brand in the USA. It has 13.3% of the U.S. market through May. It is just 0.7 percentage points, or 48,658 sales, behind No. 3 DaimlerChrysler, according to Autodata.
His most recent price remarks came at a press conference in which Okuda was speaking as chairman of the influential Japan Business Federation.
Antitrust lawyers say the Justice Department is likely to take note of the comments and watch for unusual moves in Detroit automakers' pricing.
Okuda's comments might have the opposite result. Antitrust lawyers say it's possible that Detroit car companies might temporarily skip planned price increases on models that compete directly with Toyota models to prove they are not colluding with Toyota in a price-fixing scheme.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
You aren't making any sense (suprise), and you are saying that I'm saying things that I'm not. |
Jesus Christ, Kid, I'm going to walk through this nice and slowly for you. This is the chain of conversation:
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Toyota is raising prices because they can. Like they really want to help GM and Ford.  |
You say Toyota is NOT raising prices to help GM and Ford, but rather because they can raise prices.
Repeat: Toyota is NOT trying to help GM and Ford, sez Kid.
quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I guess you didn't read the BBC article a few months back where Toyota's CEO said he was deathly afraid of protectionist action by the US and that he believed the best thing Toyota could do was raise prices in order to give GM breathing room (he didn't mention Ford). |
Oerdin responds to Kid's claim that Toyota is NOT trying to help GM and Ford by pointing out that Toyota's CEO has stated that Toyota DID raise prices to help GM and Ford.
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I know the difference between what people say and what they mean. You think they are going to say they are raising prices to make more money? |
Kid responds to Oerdin's reference to a statement by Toyota's CEO bye claiming that the CEO is lieing about the reasons for raising prices because it wouldn't sound good to say "we're raising prices to make more money".
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Isn't it smarter to drive your competition to the ground so you make even MORE money in the long run? |
Imran jumps in here, pointing out that Toyota would make more money by lowering prices or keeping them the same and driving GM and Ford out of business, because once they are out of business Toyota can raise prices even HIGHER since it would have less competition.
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Of course, but the US govt isn't going to let that happen, and Toyota knows it. |
Kid responds that the US government would take steps to prevent GM and Ford going out of business if they were in danger of doing so, and that Toyota is aware of this and is trying to avoid it.
At this point, everyone please note that Kid has just made exactly the same claim that the CEO of Toyota made. However, Kid claimed that the CEO of Toyota was lieing. Kid has now directly contradicted himself.
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
So you've admitted that the impetus behind this isn't to make more money... it's to prevent getting too much market share so the US government doesn't bring down the hammer.
Thanks. |
Imran, with his extraordinary perception[/sarcasm], points out the same thing that I just did.
quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Would you like to make a bet as to whether Toyota will make more profit or not? |
Kid, possibly confused at having made the same point as his opponent, claims that Toyota's profits will increase as a result of this price increase, and presumably that this profit increase is the motivation for Toyota to increase prices. Note that this is in contradiction with his previous post ("Of course, but the US govt isn't going to let that happen, and Toyota knows it") but consistent with his original post ("Toyota is raising prices because they can. Like they really want to help GM and Ford").
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Do you actually remember what you said? You said you know the difference between what Toyota said and what they meant. Then you confirmed that Toyota was raising prices to prevent the US from getting all protectionist, which is what they SAID!
No one ever said they weren't going to make profits, they already make a ton.
Besides, they don't just compete against Ford and GM. A higher price means that companies like Mazda are licking their lips. |
Imran's once again notices this subtle change in argument[/sarcasm] and restates the positions and arguments of both sides, noting your inconsistency.
Kid, I'm sorry[/sarcasm], but you've just been so pwned it's not funny at all, just really, really sad.
EDIT: added sarcasm tags just in case
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:33
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quote:
Jesus H. Christ! That is some ignorant talk. There has never been a plastic piston and GM is currently pawning EVERY SINGLE FREAKING LAST ONE OF THE EUROPEAN AUTOMAKERS when it comes to quality! That's right there isn't a mass market automaker which does as good a job in quality that matches much less passes GM. GM also pawns the **** out of nearly all of the Japanese automakers as well when it comes to quality. Only Toyota and Honda does better so that leaves around 11 Japanese makers who are sucking GM's tail pipe.
I just find it so funny that Euro's mass market cars are such total crap that they get beaten by Koreans in quality studies yet ignorant Euros still try to bad mouth Amnerican cars. That's just stupid.
BTW if the EU wasn't a hugely protectionist POS nearly every European automaker (bare a few high end makes) would be dead by now. Europe is still the most protected big automarket on Earth (though the Japanese are sneaky qabout using nontarrif barriers). |
hahaha, yeah i know, GM never made a car with a plastic piston, but it was hyperbole. you know what i mean.
in a european car, at least you get luxery, and it runs fine in all types of weather. i mean face it, american cars just blow. i would buy japanese before i buy american. they use too much gas, they're too big, they pollute too much, they have plastic pistons, no luxery, shitty interiors, and they are too expensive. ford is the worse by far, but GM comes in second.
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10-06-2005 23:57
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