14-06-2005 02:26									#1
	Growing rift? UK+Europe Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4089770.stm

The gloves are coming off it seems. Is this going to be eurovision all over again.......but more serious? Is this the price we must pay(the uk) for getting into bed with G.Bush?

Part of me agrees that our rebate is unjust in todays EU, part of me agrees that we have a point saying the other EU members need to look at their farm subsidies.

So why all the fuss - lets modernise the EU?

	14-06-2005 02:29									#2
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I would be more than happy to lose the rebate, so long as all of the subsidies are re-evaluated.

	14-06-2005 02:36									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Krill I would be more than happy to lose the rebate, so long as all of the subsidies are re-evaluated.

I find it highly amusing that the French are the source of the charge. Especially as they net contribute far less than the UK in total, per capita, per GDP etc even with the rebate in place. Take away the rebate and the French are net nil contributors!

	14-06-2005 02:39									#4
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4088132.stm

quote: You can always depend on the British and French to turn an argument into a row. Having witnessed them over many years, I have tried to identify the various rules governing these encounters. # There is no closed season. Each side can attack the other whenever it wants. The subject doesn't really matter. This is the 100-years war by other means. The key thing is to maintain the offensive on whatever front. # Each party knows that the other can take it. It is a way of continuing history - with nobody killed. France and the UK know underneath that not since Waterloo have they come to blows nor will they again. The Entente may not be that Cordiale but it is now 101 years old. Both love this at heart. They are two sides of the same coin - both nationalistic, proud and prickly. And a bit absurd to others. # This is an exclusive Franco-British club. It is evenly matched. Nobody else can join. It is impossible, for example, to bring the Germans in. They might take it too seriously and history is just a bit too sensitive. And nobody else counts. You cannot have such fun with Luxembourg. # Treat the other side's arguments with contempt. You present your own, of course, as gospel. Thus, the French see nothing but good in the common agriculture policy and the British see nothing but bad. The same is true with the rebate. You must never concede that the other fellow might have a point. Not in public anyway. # Blame the other side for your own failings. In the recent referendum the French blamed the Brits for something called "Anglo-Saxon" attitudes and policies which were apparently threatening to ruin France. The counter charge is that European (meaning French-inspired) bureaucracy is strangling the plucky Brits. # You can turn this personal if all else fails. Margaret Thatcher used to scowl and rail about "they" during the heights of the original rebate rows. "They" were any Frenchmen. She never forgave the French for their ambivalent attitude, as she saw it and she saw it only one way, towards the Falklands War.

	14-06-2005 02:44									#5
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@Dauphin. True, so very true...

	14-06-2005 02:45									#6
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Pretty much dead on correct.

	14-06-2005 02:45									#7
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quote: # You can turn this personal if all else fails. Margaret Thatcher used to scowl and rail about "they" during the heights of the original rebate rows. "They" were any Frenchmen. She never forgave the French for their ambivalent attitude, as she saw it and she saw it only one way, towards the Falklands War.

Even Reagan was ambivalent about that at first.

	14-06-2005 02:48									#8
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"German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has warned Tony Blair there is "no space for national egotism" in talks over the European Union's budget."

from the bbc link at top.

But the Germans have joined in, on the side of the french and every other EU member

I see us maybe getting our arses wipped - like in eurovision

	14-06-2005 02:50									#9
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor "German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has warned Tony Blair there is "no space for national egotism" in talks over the European Union's budget." from the bbc link at top. But the Germans have joined in, on the side of the french and every other EU member I see us maybe getting our arses wipped - like in eurovision

New Europe can be persuaded to put pressure on the French and Germans to rethink CAP, and the UK can be intransigent as it wants if it stays on that message.

	14-06-2005 02:51									#10
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* DanS puts some popcorn in the microwave

Go Brits!

	14-06-2005 03:01									#11
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In a way i think Chirac should be noble about this. From the way i understand it he has become so damaged on the home front, he is unlikely to remain in power come the next french election(there could be a swing back to the socialists).

So why not take the opportunity to accept that the EU's finacial sistuation isn't as good as it could be, and take up britains offer of relooking at the whole deal? So what if a load of farmers get miffed - they aren't going to vote him in next time anyway.

	14-06-2005 03:27									#12
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The rift is not growing, the rift has always been there. Sometimes it's just more noticeable.

The Brits just can't make up their minds if they want to be part of Europe or not. The rest is just ordinary bickering that seems to pretty much define Europe, indiscriminate of the nations involved (I can assure you Dutch-Belgian and Dutch-French relations are just as 'bad', just less high-profile in international media).

It beats killing each other, so I'm not complaining...

	14-06-2005 03:30									#13
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quote: You can always depend on the British and French to turn an argument into a row. Having witnessed them over many years, I have tried to identify the various rules governing these encounters. # There is no closed season. Each side can attack the other whenever it wants. The subject doesn't really matter. This is the 100-years war by other means. The key thing is to maintain the offensive on whatever front. # Each party knows that the other can take it. It is a way of continuing history - with nobody killed. France and the UK know underneath that not since Waterloo have they come to blows nor will they again. The Entente may not be that Cordiale but it is now 101 years old. Both love this at heart. They are two sides of the same coin - both nationalistic, proud and prickly. And a bit absurd to others. # This is an exclusive Franco-British club. It is evenly matched. Nobody else can join. It is impossible, for example, to bring the Germans in. They might take it too seriously and history is just a bit too sensitive. And nobody else counts. You cannot have such fun with Luxembourg. # Treat the other side's arguments with contempt. You present your own, of course, as gospel. Thus, the French see nothing but good in the common agriculture policy and the British see nothing but bad. The same is true with the rebate. You must never concede that the other fellow might have a point. Not in public anyway. # Blame the other side for your own failings. In the recent referendum the French blamed the Brits for something called "Anglo-Saxon" attitudes and policies which were apparently threatening to ruin France. The counter charge is that European (meaning French-inspired) bureaucracy is strangling the plucky Brits. # You can turn this personal if all else fails. Margaret Thatcher used to scowl and rail about "they" during the heights of the original rebate rows. "They" were any Frenchmen. She never forgave the French for their ambivalent attitude, as she saw it and she saw it only one way, towards the Falklands War.

	14-06-2005 03:37									#14
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor So why not take the opportunity to accept that the EU's finacial sistuation isn't as good as it could be, and take up britains offer of relooking at the whole deal? So what if a load of farmers get miffed - they aren't going to vote him in next time anyway.

First, the issue comes up because Chirac needs to weaken Tony on his "let's bury the constitution" stance. The Rosbif rebate is widely loathed in Europe, and even the traditionally pro-Rosbif new members don't want to "pay for Britain's rebate". It's actually pretty adept of Chirac to pick this issue in time of need.

Secondly, Chirac is considerably weakened at home, and he wants his last years in power to be as little unstable as possible. When you're trying to save face during a regime crisis, the last thing you need is unhappiness among the farmers. It tends to be much more nasty than strikes among the doctors

	14-06-2005 03:51									#15
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The rebate is just fine.

	14-06-2005 03:53									#16
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So is britain wrong to suggest a change for everyone? From what people have posted abotu this and what i've read it would seem that ok the rebate is heavily slanted in britains favour, but overall it is negated by other contributions we make, or so i've been led to believe.

I think in the light of the recent 'No' votes on the constitution, and the economical crisis that seems to effect the EU zone, we should be looking at every part of the picture and trying to make a better/stronger/more powerful and united europe(with us inclueded in it)

Lets be brave and bold?

	14-06-2005 04:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Lets be brave and bold?

With Chirac?!



Bravery and boldery are for the kind of people who resign after suffering three electoral humiliations in a row. Not for the likes of Chirac, who remain in power only to continue being surrounded by delusions, and to avoid facing justice.

	14-06-2005 04:12									#18
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More seriously, I don't thin European Councils are able to give any vision for the future any more. There are just too many small "egotical" interests, and no government (at least, no influent one) can get the big picture.

The CAP, as it is, sucks. We could protect our small farmers equally well while lowering the CAP immensely (I heard up to 90% of the French part of the CAP goes to agribusiness ). The CAP about mediterannean products has undergone a seirous change in the riight direction IMO, with much more ecological development, instead of outdated productivism.

However, Chirac isn't the man who'll make the CAP budge. He's old, he sees himself as a new De Gaulle (who introduced the CAP in the first place), he isn't imaginative enough. And he certainly doesn't want to stir any more discontent during the last years of hisn reign. This is why his new government wholly reeks of half-assedness. This is why there is no single member of the cabinet below 40. This is why France will remain led by an old-school old man for the coming two years.

Don't expect anything revolutionary from him.

	14-06-2005 04:34									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus The rift is not growing, the rift has always been there. Sometimes it's just more noticeable. The Brits just can't make up their minds if they want to be part of Europe or not. The rest is just ordinary bickering that seems to pretty much define Europe, indiscriminate of the nations involved (I can assure you Dutch-Belgian and Dutch-French relations are just as 'bad', just less high-profile in international media). It beats killing each other, so I'm not complaining...

Only when we say bad thing 'bout your prime-minister.

	14-06-2005 04:35									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Krill I would be more than happy to lose the rebate, so long as all of the subsidies are re-evaluated.

	14-06-2005 05:44									#21
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Judging by the way that nations are rejecting the EU constitution it would appear that Europe is about to fall apart.

	14-06-2005 06:43									#22
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It isn't.
One problem is that they waited 50 years to ask anything, the other is that everyting that is bad, is blamed on Brussels, so off course, if then you're gonna ask wether people still like Europe...

	14-06-2005 08:39									#23
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Oh, it isn't going to fall apart but they may have to actually start defering to their people's desires from time to time.

	14-06-2005 10:13									#24
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quote: Originally posted by alva Only when we say bad thing 'bout your prime-minister.

What was so bad about it? For once a lot of people over here thought there actually was something intelligent coming from Belgium

	14-06-2005 11:02									#25
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Ehh, this particular piece of New Europe came under pressure from SWEDEN of all places to push UK. Sweden has a lot of clout here.

	14-06-2005 11:04									#26
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If I were in charge I'd support UK, just to piss off Chirac.

	14-06-2005 13:30									#27
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The chances of Blair budging on this is remote. From what I've seen, the whole of the British press is behind him.

Scrap the CAP, scrap the rebate. Seems fair enough to me.

	14-06-2005 13:32									#28
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Business as usual in Europe then!

	14-06-2005 13:40									#29
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Wasn't the original purpose of the rebate because Thatcher objected to paying for farm subsidies for French farmers? That seems valid and the situation has gotten worse not better.

	14-06-2005 13:40									#30
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Exactly. Chirac won't budge on the CAP (political suicide for him) and we won't budge on the rebate.