14-06-2005 20:41									#61
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the whole thing is tuned into destroying the social state and eroding workers rights that have been gained through struggles and blood. and instead of stopping and finding ways to protect it and them, the political elites simply apologize and point the finger at "the global economic situation" probably the biggest chimera since i dont know when. the point is not to "negotiate" with the neoliberal plague but to smash it from the bottom up hence forcing the political elites to take a minimum distance from their financial overlords. imo.

	14-06-2005 20:43									#62
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Are you bloody nuts?

	14-06-2005 20:43									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus The rift is not growing, the rift has always been there. Sometimes it's just more noticeable. The Brits just can't make up their minds if they want to be part of Europe or not. The rest is just ordinary bickering that seems to pretty much define Europe, indiscriminate of the nations involved (I can assure you Dutch-Belgian and Dutch-French relations are just as 'bad', just less high-profile in international media). It beats killing each other, so I'm not complaining...

Although it does seem to be affiliated to the French culture, since *all* of the examples you pointed out feature one party speaking French

(I can´t think of any such dispute involving the Germans or Austrians, apart from the never ending story of Turkey´s membership status...)

	14-06-2005 20:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Oh please do sod off. It's liberalism which has brought Europe and European-rooted cultures to its current status in the world.

eastern europeans are often the worse jannisaries of the neoliberals but it will pass when you'll get the capitalist stake deep into your ass and realize what's the game. the problem then, that is after you realize you were acting like the slurping neophyte, is to get it out.

	14-06-2005 20:52									#65
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Janissaries of the neoliberals?

	14-06-2005 20:54									#66
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 eastern europeans are often the worse jannisaries of the neoliberals but it will pass when you'll get the capitalist stake deep into your ass and realize what's the game. the problem then, that is after you realize you were acting like the slurping neophyte, is to get it out.

Look at Sweden in riches countries list of 1960. Look at Sweden in richest countries list in 2005. PWND, young Turk

	14-06-2005 20:55									#67
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if you think what a jannisary was, you'd find it very fitting

	14-06-2005 20:57									#68
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you didnt learn your lesson well little neoliberal jannisary, sweden has one of the biggest social states and taxation, it's a liberalist's worse nightmare. and of course, by saying sweden, you prove my words about why it's essential to avoid liberalist policies

	14-06-2005 20:58									#69
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Oh I do know, paiktis. Have your balls grown back since I cut them off, perhaps? Sorry about that, btw.

	14-06-2005 20:58									#70
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you didnt learn your lesson well little neoliberal jannisary, sweden has one of the biggest social states and taxation, it's a liberalist's worse nightmare. and of course, by saying sweden, you prove my words about why it's essential to avoid liberalist policies

Which means you HAVEN't looked at that list PWND ^ 2

	14-06-2005 20:59									#71
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we're discussing with some added flavor btw, i'm not trolling you

	14-06-2005 21:00									#72
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 we're discussing with some added flavor btw, i'm not trolling you

Me neither. I'd actually love to meet up. Any chance you'll be in Belgrade for the Euro hoops tourney?

	14-06-2005 21:01									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Which means you HAVEN't looked at that list PWND ^ 2

repeat after me little jan,
liberalism= less taxes, less social state, less workers rights


sweden= of the highest taxation, massive social state, adequate workers rights (in that it's not much better than other countrie).


now go to soros' central european university and redo your exams

	14-06-2005 21:05									#74
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 repeat after me little jan, liberalism= less taxes, less social state, less workers rights sweden= of the highest taxation, massive social state, adequate workers rights (in that it's not much better than other countrie). now go to soros' central european university and redo your exams

So you're too lazy to do some basic googling? THAT'S what a social state does to people, they become LAZY

	14-06-2005 21:12									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Me neither. I'd actually love to meet up. Any chance you'll be in Belgrade for the Euro hoops tourney?

i actually didn't know it would happen! when is it?
looks pale though because i'm a little tight for money this period

	14-06-2005 21:15									#76
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You can hitch a ride to Belgrade; I can't

	14-06-2005 22:05									#77
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Paiktiss, Saras is speaking about how Sweden was near the top of the rich country list in 1960 and it is some where in the bottom half of the list today. The high tax, high regulation socialist system neutured the countries economy and the current standard of living could only be maintained by a shrinking population. That isn't in the long term interests of Sweden though.

The basic fact is that due to world trade agreements Europe can no longer tarrif the rest of the world out of its markets so its companies must compete against competitors from around the world. Right now Europe is having a hard time doing that as proven by the double digit unemployment in many of Europe's most important economies. Saras says the east will will surpass the west and as long as the east can maintain any positive real growth then they'll be gowing faster then most of western Europe.

	14-06-2005 22:17									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Saras You can hitch a ride to Belgrade; I can't

i'll talk to some friends, maybe we could come to belgrade (assumign we do well ) if it happens i'll let you know.


oerdin, eastern europe is getting massive investment from western europe due to keeping its taxation of companies down. that can't be kept up indefinitely but it is a way for quick drive towards parity sometime between the two

about competition, you fall, imo, to a trojan horse of what liberalists say. i say, instead of trying to be "compettive" (which means eroding workers rights, desotrying the social state etc) we shoudl actuallypush for the creation of social state and the reinforcement of workers rights in other parts of the world (hey even the US )

i'd ask you to stop and think for a moment. is it logical that a 98% of the population is barely making a living while 2% richer beyond any stretch of the imagination?
there are structural weaknesses in a liberal economy about attributing wealth. and i, at least, believe that the political elites that rule are very, very promtp to succumbing to corporations' interests that arent in the favor of the worker. do you think any corp wouldnt love to have you fro 5 dollars a day? anyway this is a very raw simplistic blueprint of it all, we can talk for hours about that, but this isnt the medium.
i'll just say that the ultimate brainwash is to think that what's good for the capital is necessairily good for you and to think that there's no other solution.

	14-06-2005 23:59									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Saras I'm sick of redistribution being the main EU goal. Yes, and I come from Lithuania. We can beat you, eventually, on a level playing field thank you very much, no need for free money. Free money corrupts. Just give us truly free movement of capital, services, labour and goods, and you'll see.

quote: Originally posted by Saras We are fighting an uphill battle, but not AGAINST you guys, we're fighting against OURSELVES, i.e., how can we be more productive, provide better education, get some money flowing into new businesses, expand to new markets.

	15-06-2005 10:26									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor

"BEAT you" means in a way of having a better standard of living.

But not at YOUR EXPENSE. It's your failure to grasp the possibility of such a thing happening that forms the basis of your and other, pardon me, loony left peoples delusions about how economies REALLY work..

	15-06-2005 16:43									#81
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 edit.... about the "rift", it's not so much of a new rift, it's just that as th eeu enters in a crisis the french which always had a much bigger influence in the eu than the english are scapegoating the UK. it would be good if people didnt fell for it. the problems are deeper than that

Oh yes much deeper, remember Agincourt frenchies?

oh..... i forgot about the Norman Invasion for a momment



I think the whole english/french(its doesn't include wales/scotland/ireland(or cornwall )) rift thing needs sorting out.

You(france/england) need to accept that you are basicaly the same people and work out your differences.

The EU needs to be forward looking, not bringing up old rivalries when more important work needs to be done.

Keep those rivalries on the sports fields

	15-06-2005 23:29									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Saras But not at YOUR EXPENSE. It's your failure to grasp the possibility of such a thing happening that forms the basis of your and other, pardon me, loony left peoples delusions about how economies REALLY work..

I can grasp the possibility of such a thing. However, the current European model of development is not one where the development of Central and Eastern Europe is done at no expense of "old Europe". Once all countries will have a similarly high economic level, we will all be better off. But it'll take a generation to do so, and during this time, a good chunk of the growth of the CEE (not all of it) will be due to wealth transfer from the west, that will cost the west many jobs, and that will force the west to lower the protections it offered to its populations.

If your growth was entirely thanks to domestic economic dynamism, then why would you need truly open markets for investment and exports? When you sell something to the Italians that used to be produced in Italy, what do you think the Italian producers (I mean, the workers/employees) are doing?

	15-06-2005 23:32									#83
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor You(france/england) need to accept that you are basicaly the same people and work out your differences.

There's one thing we agree about, and it's about beating peacemakers of your kind first, before resuming our beloved mutual bashing

	16-06-2005 00:06									#84
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quote: You(france/england) need to accept that you are basicaly the same people and work out your differences.

The English are mostly a German sub group while French are a latin offshoot. Major difference.Then there are the historical religious differences (Catholic vs Protestant) and the major ideological differences. I don't think anyone needs to be told the difference between Anglo-Saxon economic ideas and French statist economic ideas.

	16-06-2005 00:13									#85
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I did hear a nice-sounding proposal to settle this issue by hacking into the non-CAP agricultural subisidies that are sloshing about (about 10% of agri-subs are outwith the CAP).

	16-06-2005 00:20									#86
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Why not just enter an agreement with the US and Japan to kill agricultural subsidies? That would half third world poverty over night, free up vast resources to use in other ways, and stop the fleecing of honest tax payers. Imagine if half the tax money paid into CAP were instead spent on infastructure, education, or social development in the EU. Imagine if the US stopped throwing money away on greedy farmers who demand money to not farm; how much more could be spent on education or health care?

	16-06-2005 01:06									#87
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Yes, that would definately be the crown of diplomacy. Unfortunately, it doesn´t work that way.

	16-06-2005 01:19									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Why not just enter an agreement with the US and Japan to kill agricultural subsidies? That would half third world poverty over night, free up vast resources to use in other ways, and stop the fleecing of honest tax payers. Imagine if half the tax money paid into CAP were instead spent on infastructure, education, or social development in the EU. Imagine if the US stopped throwing money away on greedy farmers who demand money to not farm; how much more could be spent on education or health care?

WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM!?!

	16-06-2005 02:19									#89
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Run for election and i'll vote for that, but meh, who am i kidding, democracy doesn't work.

	18-06-2005 15:45									#90
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4106250.stm

This all sounds pretty nasty. hmmmm is it in the usa's interest for britain to be a thorn in the side of the EU?