14-06-2005 14:27									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Wasn't the original purpose of the rebate because Thatcher objected to paying for farm subsidies for French farmers? That seems valid and the situation has gotten worse not better.

Rebates for everyone who's paying then!

	14-06-2005 14:38									#32
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We still have a veto n'est pas? We'll veto any plan to lose our rebate, and we'll veto any plan to lose our veto.

	14-06-2005 14:39									#33
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The British had the Franco-Germans over the barrel where they needed the British not to veto something and Thatcher said the only way she wouldn't was if the UK got a rebate. You folks got what you wanted and the British still have what they wanted.

	14-06-2005 15:12									#34
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The entire idea of the Eu is that the rich guys pay more than the poor guys. Since this isn't a fixed ranking, things can and have to change over time. So I personally don't really care what Thatcher negotiated decades ago, the situation now is important.

Of course Blair can probably defend the rebate now. Over a longer time span however it has to go (with the overdone agro-subsidies for example).

	14-06-2005 15:45									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Wasn't the original purpose of the rebate because Thatcher objected to paying for farm subsidies for French farmers? That seems valid and the situation has gotten worse not better.

Not quite. The rebate was originally because the UK was one of the poorer EU nations in the 80s, and also one of the largest net contributors. It's now one of the richest.

The issue now is that without the rebate, Britain would be the largest net contributor and the largest per capita net contributor - with Germany being the largest economy. The crux of the matter, to me, is that even with the rebate, the UK contributes more money to the EU than the French, both net per capita and net total contribution. This is due to the fact that the UK gets the least from the CAP per capita of any nation in the EU.

While the distribution of the CAP and other programmes is so skewed away from the UK, we won't budge on the rebate. Simple as. Make the system more equitable, and we won't need a payment to try and redress the balance.

quote: Originally posted by Krill I would be more than happy to lose the rebate, so long as all of the subsidies are re-evaluated.

	14-06-2005 15:49									#36
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The huge agricultural subsidies must go! Why should we lose our rebate just for it to go to French snail farmers who make a loss?

	14-06-2005 15:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro The entire idea of the Eu is that the rich guys pay more than the poor guys. Since this isn't a fixed ranking, things can and have to change over time. So I personally don't really care what Thatcher negotiated decades ago, the situation now is important.

Exactly. Which is why France contributes less than the Netherlands and less than the UK even after the rebate.

What needs to be remembered is that the UK is still the second largest net cotnributor to the EU after receiving the rebate. It's also the second largest economy. I'd say that's pretty equitable.

	14-06-2005 15:58									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue The issue now is that without the rebate, Britain would be the largest net contributor and the largest per capita net contributor - with Germany being the largest economy.

Well, if the numbers here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4090274.stm are correct the UK would be still the second largest net contributor without the rebate, although with not much of a difference to Germany then.

(Graphic shows 2,8 bn € now + 4,4 bn € rebate mentioned in the article)

But yeah, I agree that there should be general changes to balance the system, not just finger-pointing towards the UK.

	14-06-2005 16:01									#39
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But Germany's contribution is also lessened if they don't pay the rebate. We'd contribute €7.2bn and Germany's would be about €7bn, IIRC.

Last edited by Drogue on 14-06-2005 at 16:50

	14-06-2005 16:15									#40
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loose CAP loose rebates...loose veto...make european elections stand for something other then just advisors...EU saved

	14-06-2005 16:26									#41
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Déjà vu:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/188769.stm

	14-06-2005 16:50									#42
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I just noticed that the Netherlands pays more into the EU then France does while the UK pays nearly a billion more Euros per year then France even after the rebate. That's seriously screwed up. If I was in charge of the UK I'd just stop paying until the greedy Frenchmen gave up their huge subsidies and started paying their fair share.

	14-06-2005 16:55									#43
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We can't, they have a veto too. They are paying their share, they just receive a lot more because they have more farmers eligable for the CAP.

Structural programmes and the CAP are not done based on nationality, they're done based on criteria. France receives more because more French farmers qualify. We can't just say "redude the amount the French get" nor would we want to. We just want the CAP to be salted and burned

But yes, it's screwed up. The French should stop being hypocritical calling for the UK rebate to be lost while also wanting to keep their lower contributions.

	14-06-2005 16:59									#44
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It certainly sounds like there needs to be a far more equitable way of making EU contributions...

	14-06-2005 17:03									#45
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yes the netherlands (a little country in between the EU big powers) pays netto per head of the country the most in whole of the EU...(big reason why constitution was blocked here)...this is partly because the politicans here and most of the people for a long time wanted the EU to work...but now that a lot of fact are coming out about how slow and a lot of times unfair the EU works (germany france and UK have a lot of behind of the screens power) people here start blaming the EU for everything ...a year ago it was totally different...

so Remove CAP and rebates...make on big pot to help underdeveloped areas in the EU...and be done with it...if people cant make a profit because of purely economic reasons (it can be produced cheaper somewhere else) then they should go bankcrupt...i can remember times we burried food because we had to much while africa was starving...ofcourse it has to go slowly over time but i has to be done.

	14-06-2005 17:06									#46
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I'm sick of redistribution being the main EU goal. Yes, and I come from Lithuania. We can beat you, eventually, on a level playing field thank you very much, no need for free money. Free money corrupts. Just give us truly free movement of capital, services, labour and goods, and you'll see.

	14-06-2005 17:07									#47
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Netto?

	14-06-2005 17:11									#48
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SUPERNETTO!!

	14-06-2005 17:13									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Saras I'm sick of redistribution being the main EU goal. Yes, and I come from Lithuania. We can beat you, eventually, on a level playing field thank you very much, no need for free money. Free money corrupts. Just give us truly free movement of capital, services, labour and goods, and you'll see.

eventually yes....but what do you want...want it in 100 years or in half the time...i am glad to help...i am socialist in almost every sense of the word...the broader shoulders should help the smaller ones...this has nothing to do with we are better then you so we need to help you...we just have had a head start (colonisation and imperialism)

	14-06-2005 17:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Netto?

Netto, the rich chav's Lidl.

	14-06-2005 18:59									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword eventually yes....but what do you want...want it in 100 years or in half the time...i am glad to help...i am socialist in almost every sense of the word...the broader shoulders should help the smaller ones...this has nothing to do with we are better then you so we need to help you...we just have had a head start (colonisation and imperialism)

See, that's a common illusion, that somehow this free money will make us catch up faster. It may, or it may not - empirical evidence is MUTED on the issue. The heavily subsidised GREECE now has a lower average per capita income that new EU member Slovenia, for example.

What free money does to countries is the same what it does to people - it takes away incentives to try harder.

Mate, and your shoulders only look bigger; we've been through hell the last 50 years, we have a thirst to succeed and thus we try harder, and make sacrifices, and eventually we'll make you feel jealous just like we are now

	14-06-2005 19:07									#52
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The Brits are just full of envy that nothing ever grows on their lovely island

	14-06-2005 19:26									#53
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The number of Burberry baseball caps grows exponentially

	14-06-2005 19:32									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Saras See, that's a common illusion, that somehow this free money will make us catch up faster. It may, or it may not - empirical evidence is MUTED on the issue. The heavily subsidised GREECE now has a lower average per capita income that new EU member Slovenia, for example. What free money does to countries is the same what it does to people - it takes away incentives to try harder. Mate, and your shoulders only look bigger; we've been through hell the last 50 years, we have a thirst to succeed and thus we try harder, and make sacrifices, and eventually we'll make you feel jealous just like we are now

this can go two way...look at the ones heavy subsidised IRELAND...it is thriving now compared to before the subsidies...and about your thirst for succeeds...fine good luck and start impressing the hell out of 'us'

	14-06-2005 19:36									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword this can go two way...look at the ones heavy subsidised IRELAND...it is thriving now compared to before the subsidies...and about your thirst for succeeds...fine good luck and start impressing the hell out of 'us'

Ireland is exceptional in many ways:

1. Proximity to UK, same language;
2. Attracted LOTS and LOTS of US FDI in high value-added sectors as well as R&D centers;
3. Managed to utilise EU aid in a very efficient manner.

I think that Lithuania, for example, will waste most if not all of the aid, so perhaps we should not get it in the first place, so that we don't spoil ourselves

	14-06-2005 19:48									#56
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1. doesnt matter...lithuania has geographicly a much better position...in between finland, germany and russia and located on the east sea

2. have no idea what US FDI in high value-added sectors are...R&D...no idea but i trust you

3. that isnt an exception that is just smart fincansing

but heck if you dont want it ok...more for other countries that need help...or me

	14-06-2005 19:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword 1. doesnt matter...lithuania has geographicly a much better position...in between finland, germany and russia and located on the east sea 2. have no idea what US FDI in high value-added sectors are...R&D...no idea but i trust you 3. that isnt an exception that is just smart fincansing but heck if you dont want it ok...more for other countries that need help...or me

you wish dude

by 3. I meant that culturally Ireland is much less corrupt. Hence, the aid was utilised at least on projects that really were needed and at normal market prices. Here, on the other hand...

1. I'd agree and disagree. It is much easier when you have a large, affluent market next door which speaks your language as opposed to 5-6 VERY different ones. Distribution and sales were much easier for the Irish in UK than for us in Russia and every single Scandi country.

	14-06-2005 20:11									#58
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we have the same. here we have france the UK and germany around us...but we do far out our most dealings with germany...just pick the best market and stick with it for awhile...stability and rest is the best thing for a country to grow (peacefully that is )

	14-06-2005 20:24									#59
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personally i think the rift between uk and europe which was actually a rift between the socialist oriented franco-german axis and the uk accompoanied with other dissenting voices like denmark and sweden but for different reasons each, has taken 2nd place to what is actually a deadly serious problem with the eu. and that's the ugly head of liberalism which combined with the ever present democratic deficit affects negaively many people and with a future to do so.

about the "rift", it's not so much of a new rift, it's just that as th eeu enters in a crisis the french which always had a much bigger influence in the eu than the english are scapegoating the UK. it would be good if people didnt fell for it. the problems are deeper than that

	14-06-2005 20:41									#60
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 personally i think the rift between uk and europe which was actually a rift between the socialist oriented franco-german axis and the uk accompoanied with other dissenting voices like denmark and sweden but for different reasons each, has taken 2nd place to what is actually a deadly serious problem with the eu. and that's the ugly head of liberalism which combined with the ever present democratic deficit affects negaively many people and with a future to do so. about the "rift", it's not so much of a new rift, it's just that as th eeu enters in a crisis the french which always had a much bigger influence in the eu than the english are scapegoating the UK. it would be good if people didnt fell for it. the problems are deeper than that

Oh please do sod off. It's liberalism which has brought Europe and European-rooted cultures to its current status in the world.