19-06-2005 00:36									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue That the EU shouldn't work? The EU has and always will be run by national politics, because it's the national voters that decide whether the politicians stay or go. These voters don't care (at least here) about high minded unification ideas of the political elite, they care about money, and where it's going.

Sure national politics plays a role. But when having 25 or even more members it seems pretty obvious that no nation can get its ideas through to 100% in all aspects.

	19-06-2005 00:44									#122
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But why would a nation agree to something it doesn't agree with?

	19-06-2005 00:47									#123
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT The nonsense would be to rely on the UK to save the EU. The UK did not participate in the creation, it implored to join when it realized the potentialities of the Union, only in order to prevent a political association.

The UK joined because it liked the idea of a common market because that's what the EEC was when it joined. The EU didn't come until later and I note that the UK didn't veto its formation which it had the power to do. Sure, it influenced the EU in ways to make it more friendly to Anglo-Saxon market ideas but it didn't stop the EEC from turning into the EU.

Currently France and Germany are walking through the wilderness of high unemployment and very low growth. Eventually they will each have a Thatcher like figure who free up their economies and get things growing again. It will cause pain in the short run but in the long run it will be better for all of Europe to have a strong economy.

	19-06-2005 00:50									#124
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As Spiffor and I have said in other threads, the EU needs a unified economic policy so companies can't send member countries into a Welfare/Regulation cutting comptition that only helps corporate elities. It is near impossible to stop outsourcing to developing countries whether you have social-democrat or neo-liberal economies unless you want everyone in the EU to be payed $1/hr, so that argument from the neo-libs is moot.

	19-06-2005 00:51									#125
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quote: But why would a nation agree to something it doesn't agree with?

Currently there's no way to change that, if one nation does not agree it vetoes, end of story. But sooner or later we have to come to a majority rule, then it is something else. Tf this is introduced by all, they also would have to accept the resulting decisions then, even if they do not agree - just the same way the minority has to accept the (democratic) rule of a majority on a national level.

	19-06-2005 00:58									#126
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So Odin, you're claiming France should help its national economy by erecting trade and investment barriers against the other members of the EU? That's just not very smart nor is it good economics.

	19-06-2005 01:26									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Odin As Spiffor and I have said in other threads, the EU needs a unified economic policy so companies can't send member countries into a Welfare/Regulation cutting comptition that only helps corporate elities. It is near impossible to stop outsourcing to developing countries whether you have social-democrat or neo-liberal economies unless you want everyone in the EU to be payed $1/hr, so that argument from the neo-libs is moot.

But at what level? Should the German's and French lower their benefits to the UK level causing unrest there, or should we raise ours and become less economically viable compared to the US?

And it's not a simple cost thing with developing economies. There's huge transport and communication costs involved, which is why most firms don't do it for many things. Higher wages and more regulation makes firms that haven't outsourced more likely to.

If it's just about cost, why don't *all* companies outsource? Because it's costly. The more costly labour is here, the more outsourcing. It's not a bad thing, but it's a fact.

The big problem is that the French, German's and the UK have fundamental differences in their attitude to work and the economy. None of us will budge, so a unified economic policy is impossible.

	19-06-2005 01:30									#128
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Currently there's no way to change that, if one nation does not agree it vetoes, end of story. But sooner or later we have to come to a majority rule, then it is something else. Tf this is introduced by all, they also would have to accept the resulting decisions then, even if they do not agree - just the same way the minority has to accept the (democratic) rule of a majority on a national level.

Except it won't happen, because in order for the UK to accept that, we'd have to have a referendum, and the UK populace aren't about to agree to hand over sovereignty.

We need Spiffor's 2 stage system - an EU for those that want to integrate and an EEC for those that don't.

The EU is like a tax system where a country can opt out or in completely. Either they get to use the services (CAP, structural programmes, etc.) and they pay, or they don't. In tax, there isn't a choice, so those who do better by paying for it themselves don't get to. In the EU, a nation can opt out. If we have QMV on lots of things, it's in the interest of rich countries not to be part of the EU, as they pay more than they gain. They'll opt out. Since you can't force a country to stay there, it won't be feasible.

	19-06-2005 01:50									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue The big problem is that the French, German's and the UK have fundamental differences in their attitude to work and the economy. None of us will budge, so a unified economic policy is impossible.

I can agree with that.

Consequently the political Europe will not include the UK. And the EU will be reduced to a trading zone applying the WTC rules. No longer PAC, no longer a rebate, only the joy of free trade; happy?

	19-06-2005 01:58									#130
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Yep Though we may be able to keep free movement as well as no trade barriers, even if just as a bilateral agreement.

As much as I love Europe, it's not a good thing for the UK at the moment to try and align themselves, economically or politically, with France and Germany. Co-operation is better than integration, IMHO.

	19-06-2005 02:15									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Yep Though we may be able to keep free movement as well as no trade barriers, even if just as a bilateral agreement. As much as I love Europe, it's not a good thing for the UK at the moment to try and align themselves, economically or politically, with France and Germany. Co-operation is better than integration, IMHO.

Ok for free movement, provided they are organized as they are by the US : list of passengers in trains and cars including 75 datas about identity, destination, sexual preferences, education, dresses, family, friends, profession, religion, tastes, experiences, opinions, political habit, health, last wishes, etc, must be transmitted 96 hours before the trip, if the trip is not cancelled by the European authority in charge of controlling Brits free movements (ECBFMA).

	19-06-2005 02:27									#132
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I can agree with that. Consequently the political Europe will not include the UK. And the EU will be reduced to a trading zone applying the WTC rules. No longer PAC, no longer a rebate, only the joy of free trade; happy?

As long as germany and france keeps their hopeless policies toward work and farming, I don't see a chance for further political concensus in eu.

Protecting workers rights is fine but if the restrictions are so harsh that companies doesn't dare to hire people, they just makes things worse.

I also wonder how long france expects to keep their farmers on social welfare.

	19-06-2005 02:29									#133
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quote: Yep Though we may be able to keep free movement as well as no trade barriers, even if just as a bilateral agreement. As much as I love Europe, it's not a good thing for the UK at the moment to try and align themselves, economically or politically, with France and Germany. Co-operation is better than integration, IMHO.

But EU is not for whatever UK wants and more important, that is NOT the spirit of the Unique European Act that was signed (UK too) and aproved back in 1986. So What are UK doing in the EU? Maybe it is too cold out? I encourage britishers to have cojones to vote for some dumbass who put you out of EU. I would like to see how things works for UK there. Surely they will try to make some EFTA 2 with Iceland or something...


(A bit of history: UK first tried to build his own EEC (EFTA,) to fight the EEC but it was clear that the EFTA had not enough power and could not compete with the CEE, because this, UK requested to be admited in the EEC but his request was declined along many years until 1973 after De Gaulle resigned (a wise man at least in this topic). Since then UK have been fattening, being the poorest EEC member in the first years is now a rich member, and by the way it has been obstructing the EU at all levels. UK didnt vote against the Unique European Act (the EU) becuase it was above all, an essential reform to reach an unified and really profitable market in despite of political and social aspects UK didnt like)

	19-06-2005 02:30									#134
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Ok for free movement, provided they are organized as they are by the US : list of passengers in trains and cars including 75 datas about identity, destination, sexual preferences, education, dresses, family, friends, profession, religion, tastes, experiences, opinions, political habit, health, last wishes, etc, must be transmitted 96 hours before the trip, if the trip is not cancelled by the European authority in charge of controlling Brits free movements (ECBFMA).

French burocracy. Ya gotta love it

	19-06-2005 02:36									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal But EU is not for whatever UK wants and more important, that is NOT the spirit of the Unique European Act that was signed (UK too) and aproved back in 1986.

To the UK, it is. The politicians signed it, because they believed in an EU. The UK voters don't, however. They want the free trade, so they live with the rest, but yes, the UK citizens want to keep the things they like and want to remove the things we don't, as every country does. Every country uses the EU for whatever it wants, and tries to stop what it doesn't. It's what the EU's been for as long as I can remember, and is why we granted the veto's in the first place.

The French don't block any reform of the CAP because of ideology, they block it because they gain a lot from it. Their voters want it. In the end, in a democracy, almost everything comes down to what the voters want. That's why each country goes for what it wants and tries to stop the rest - it's people wouldn't stand for anything else.

	19-06-2005 02:38									#136
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I'd like to see a multi-speed EU. However, it's funny that those countries which would be in the slower group (the UK for example, but also the new members) refuse this concept. The reason is the same that made the Brits enter the EEC in the first place: they want to keep their influence. A multi-speed EU would weaken the influence of the UK.

	19-06-2005 03:22									#137
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I was not speaking about the CAP i was saying that UK has been historically and is nowaday the main obstacle for the EU, a ballast that the EU should deliver. They want to participate of all the perks of staying inside EU but none of the obligations. Even Spain, a poorer country will be a net contributor in 3 or 4 years and we are not whining continuously about it, allthough it will be *much* tougher for us. So less selfish and more long term vision or go out once for all.

About the CAP i am against it at least in his current structure. Here in Spain most aids go to large alimentary corporations or very big proprietors, even nobility. For instance the house of the duke of Osuna receives 3,5 millions every years and the duchess of Alba receives 2,5 millions.

	19-06-2005 03:33									#138
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The UK is the second biggest contributor in total cash and has been since it joined the EEC back in the 1970's. You are whining like a mule over the rebate but France gets twice that amount and then some out of CAP. If a budget deal is to be brokered then the agricultural subsidies which eat up 40% of the EU budget simply must be part of it.

	19-06-2005 03:40									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal I was not speaking about the CAP i was saying that UK has been historically and is nowaday the main obstacle for the EU, a ballast that the EU should deliver. They want to participate of all the perks of staying inside EU but none of the obligations. Even Spain, a poorer country will be a net contributor in 3 or 4 years and we are not whining continuously about it, allthough it will be *much* tougher for us. So less selfish and more long term vision or go out once for all.

Spain is the biggest net beneficiary. The UK, even with the rebate, is the second largest net contributor. Without it, we're the largest net contributor. If that's not contributing our obligations I don't know what is. And to use that as an argument that we're being selfish and you're being selfless? Spain is in the EU because it gains considerably from it.

More importantly, we don't share your vision. We are acting as our long term vision, and that vision doesn't involve giving a whole lot *more* money to the EU. We want what we want, and France, Spain and Germany are being a barrier to that vision.

It's not about who's being a barrier, who's holding it up. We have fundamental differences in our vision for the EU. We don't want a superstate.

	19-06-2005 04:35									#140
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I love how the anti-English people are trying to turn this into a "WHAAAA!!! England is greedy and hates Europe!!!" when it is the French who killed the budget. Chirac said he wouldn't discuss any item on the budget accept ending the UK rebate which is bollocks. What do you expect the British to do other then tell Chirac to stuff it?

If the goal is to reach a budget agreement, and I think it is, then the whole budget will have to be discussed. That's not bringing in outside things or tying unrelated items but instead examining the budget is critical towards fixing the budget. I really don't understand how Chirac and his pet monkey in Luxembourg can even try to pretend anything else.

	19-06-2005 04:44									#141
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quote: I love how the anti-English people are trying to turn this into a "WHAAAA!!! England is greedy and hates Europe!!!" when it is the French who killed the budget. Chirac said he wouldn't discuss any item on the budget accept ending the UK rebate which is bollocks. What do you expect the British to do other then tell Chirac to stuff it? If the goal is to reach a budget agreement, and I think it is, then the whole budget will have to be discussed. That's not bringing in outside things or tying unrelated items but instead examining the budget is critical towards fixing the budget. I really don't understand how Chirac and his pet monkey in Luxembourg can even try to pretend anything else.

Again, Chirac agreed to freeze the CAP budget back in 2002. Now, everything the others wanted with the last proposal of Juncker was, that the British rebate can't be higher than € 5,5bn, i.e. they just wanted to freeze the rebate. With the exception of 2001, the rebate was every year clearly below these € 5,5 bn.

How is that unacceptable?

To put it in other words: the French already moved in 2002, why can't Britain now? Sure, it was a small step, but it was at least one.

Also note, that the reason why everyone blames the UK, is that there's only one country which profits from the rebate: the UK. France on the other hand gets only 25 % of CAP money. The CAP is an EU wide program, the rebate is not. It happens to be that France benefits the most from the CAP, but it's just BS that the French are the only beneficiaries.

	19-06-2005 04:51									#142
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Maybe because it was way too small ?

	19-06-2005 04:54									#143
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The history of the EU is a history of small steps. And with now 25 members, it will be even more so.

The British presidency will certainly be a lost half year. Blair has pissed off too many people. Juncker's message was quite clear.

	19-06-2005 04:57									#144
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quote: Originally posted by kronic Again, Chirac agreed to freeze the CAP budget back in 2002. Now, everything the others wanted with the last proposal of Juncker was, that the British rebate can't be higher than € 5,5bn, i.e. they just wanted to freeze the rebate. With the exception of 2001, the rebate was every year clearly below these € 5,5 bn. How is that unacceptable?

Because the CAP isn't frozen, and because we're not about to give a consession on our rebate unless we get a consession back.

And *any* consession to the EU is unacceptable with the voters It'd be political suicide for Blair to give a consession without something solid to bring back.

quote: Originally posted by kronic To put it in other words: the French already moved in 2002, why can't Britain now? Sure, it was a small step, but it was at least one.

The French moved a step in 2002 because they got something else from it (can't remember what, but they liked the deal too). When we're offered something, we;ll budge. Do you honestly expect us to just give away money without getting anything in return? If we're offered something, then we might accept it, but so far nothing's been offered.

quote: Originally posted by kronic Also note, that the reason why everyone blames the UK, is that there's only one country which profits from the rebate: the UK. France on the other hand gets only 25 % of CAP money. The CAP is an EU wide program, the rebate is not. It happens to be that France benefits the most from the CAP, but it's just BS that the French are the only beneficiary.

The reason we have the rebate is because we don't get much at all of any of the structural programmes. It's to even the balance. The UK is still the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU. We give away a lot of money with the rebate. The rebate makes it fairer, without it France would have made a surplus quite often and we'd be the biggest contributor.

The bottom line is - if you want to debate the budget, then let's debate the budget. If you want to just talk about the rebate, then we're not going to get anywhere. The UK has said it's happy to discuss reducing the rebate when we discuss the budget as a whole. France has said no, they won't debate anything else. And it's us who's being unreasonable?

	19-06-2005 04:59									#145
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Like you, I don't see anything wrong with a crisis or two.

Me either, the european ideal has always come stronger out of all it's crises (even back to the 'empty chair' crisis that deGaulle made)

The european ideal (as I see it) is in no danger of failing because of differences between member states (is democracy within a nation threatened when different subsections disagree?, not usually), or even the rejection of the consitituion (if a constitution is rejected by the people, that's a good thing as power without legitimacy is percieved as despotism, as the US has found out internationally regarding Iraq).

The real benefit and prize of european integration is the possible (note I said possible) success of widening the rule of law - which has transformed societies within nations over the last two centuries - to try to make it apply between nations.
This offers hope that the current bout of globalization (which has lifted more people out of grinding poverty, worldwide, than ever before) may not go the way of it's 19th century equivalent and descend into an orgy of nationalism and war.
Indeed in this age where the means of aquiring terrible destuction (WMD's etc.) are easier to get than ever before I suggest that the european project of pooled sovereignty and the application of the rule of law between states is probably the most important project humanity is undertaking.

Only europe can undertake this project, they US is too large to do so and Asia is too new to nationalism.

	19-06-2005 05:07									#146
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quote: Originally posted by kronic Also note, that the reason why everyone blames the UK, is that there's only one country which profits from the rebate: the UK. France on the other hand gets only 25 % of CAP money. The CAP is an EU wide program, the rebate is not. It happens to be that France benefits the most from the CAP, but it's just BS that the French are the only beneficiaries.

Not everybody blames the UK for their rebate. It's the CAP that are the reason the UK has this rebate not the other way around because UK farming isn't that big.

Actually, the CAP is pretty rediciuosly the way it currently works. Countries such as france and denmark are reciving grotesque amounts of money despite they are some of the wealthiest in eu. 2006 is going to be the first year where we don't get more back than we pay, wich is about time.

	19-06-2005 05:08									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Because the CAP isn't frozen, and because we're not about to give a consession on our rebate unless we get a consession back.

Ah, come on. It can't grow more than 1 % pa, which is less than the growth of the EU budget and less than the inflation rate. If Blair said after Juncker's last proposal, we agree to the compromise, if we can get € 5,5bn + 1 % pa, the others would have taken it.

quote: And *any* consession to the EU is unacceptable with the voters It'd be political suicide for Blair to give a consession without something solid to bring back.

If you can't make any concession even when you've just been reelected, then there's something seriously wrong.

quote: The French moved a step in 2002 because they got something else from it (can't remember what, but they liked the deal too). When we're offered something, we;ll budge. Do you honestly expect us to just give away money without getting anything in return? If we're offered something, then we might accept it, but so far nothing's been offered.

I don't know of anything the French got in addition. But feel free to provide some information.

quote: The reason we have the rebate is because we don't get much at all of any of the structural programmes. It's to even the balance. The UK is still the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU. We give away a lot of money with the rebate. The rebate makes it fairer, without it France would have made a surplus quite often and we'd be the biggest contributor.

So what is the justification? At first, it was the weak state of the British economy in the early 80's, then it was because Britain has few farmers and now it is because the UK is not poor anymore? The point of the structural programs is to help poor regions. Refusing to help poor regions is an even worse argument than connecting CAP and the rebate and then refusing to draw the conclusions, don't you think?

	19-06-2005 05:12									#148
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Actually, the CAP is pretty rediciuosly the way it currently works. Countries such as france and denmark are reciving grotesque amounts of money despite they are some of the wealthiest in eu. 2006 is going to be the first year where we don't get more back than we pay, wich is about time.

Agreed. So what? I don't deny the fact that the CAP needs to be reformed/abolished.

	19-06-2005 05:16									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue And *any* consession to the EU is unacceptable with the voters It'd be political suicide for Blair to give a consession without something solid to bring back.

You should write "solid" between quotation marks.

More accurately, the quote should read: "*any* consession to the EU is unacceptable with the voters It'd be political suicide for Blair to give a consession without something hyped to bring back"

The CAP is sure big bone of contention in the EU, but a reform of the CAP isn't actually solid for the British taxpayer's pockets. Even if the CAP was removed in favour of research, medicine, regional development etc., Britain would still be a net contributor to the EU, by far. The money would still pour to other countries (though less to France/Spain, and more to the new members). And it would be as legitimate for the average voter to whine about Britain losing all its money to the EU.

However, thanks to a relatively successful communication strategy, Blair managed to overhype the issue in Britain, so that it appears extremely important to the interests of the British voter.

	19-06-2005 05:19									#150
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quote: Originally posted by kronic Agreed. So what? I don't deny the fact that the CAP needs to be reformed/abolished.

Maybe the fact that france won't discuss diminshing the CAP but demands that uk has to give in to their rebate ?