14-06-2005 03:15									#1
	CIv4... Beware the planned obsolescence!!! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Before we dive into how great Civ4 will be (I for one am losing sleep over the anticipation), let us step back and notice a few things.

First off, they're only going to have 18 civilizations. Civ3 offered 31, but only with an expansion pack.

Being a die-hard Civ fan since the beginning (I own the DOS and SNES versions of CIv1), I can see how this company works. They'll be releasing Civ4 vanilla at the end of the year. As soon as sales drop off, they'll be releasing another "pumped up" version, like the Civ3 Play the World, which may offer a few more civs and buildings.

Why am I so skeptical over this? Do the math. Civ3 vanilla cost me $49.99 at Staples. Within, I got all (I forget how many) civilizations and buildings that came with it. No problem so far.

But then, when I bought the Play the World expansion pack, all I got for my $24.99 (half the cost of the original game), was three new city improvements, a great wonder, and a handful of other civilizations. Hardly worth it; I didn't get anythign close to 50 per-cent extra goodies for my 50 per-cent-of-the-cost investment.

Not to mention they also made multiple installments of Civ2.

The bottom line? I think that, as heartbreaking as the thought may be, I'm gonna stay playing Civ3 for a year or so after the Civ4 release, and I would suggest others do the same. Maybe Firaxis will take a hint and put out a full-fledged game at once instead of a mediocre one.

Lastly, if they do make updates, here are some ideas for that. they should either make them free downloads, or if they want to charge, it should be only a few dollars. Or perhaps they can sell a subscription for unlimited updating your software for $X/month.

Just don't get sucked in!

	14-06-2005 03:28									#2
	Remove this text

Do as you please, I will get it.

	14-06-2005 03:35									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Expansion packs are going to play merry hell with modding efforts.

	14-06-2005 04:00									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I see nothing wrong with expansion packs. With a good expansion-pack, a developer can fine-tune so that it takes into account monthes of intensive play by all kinds of audiences. Besides, the developer can add art and stuff that aren't vital to the game, but that refresh it. It allows the game not to be postponed for another year.

Last but not least, an expansion pack is much cheaper to develop than the actual game, and as such it brings in some money, so that someone can continue to support the game. Post-release support is extremely important (as the CTP2 fans know ), and the company must be confident of a future income in order to afford it.

	14-06-2005 04:21									#5
	Re: CIv4... Beware the planned obsolescence!!! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by ew0054 Before we dive into how great Civ4 will be (I for one am losing sleep over the anticipation), let us step back and notice a few things. First off, they're only going to have 18 civilizations. Civ3 offered 31, but only with an expansion pack. Being a die-hard Civ fan since the beginning (I own the DOS and SNES versions of CIv1), I can see how this company works. They'll be releasing Civ4 vanilla at the end of the year. As soon as sales drop off, they'll be releasing another "pumped up" version, like the Civ3 Play the World, which may offer a few more civs and buildings. Why am I so skeptical over this? Do the math. Civ3 vanilla cost me $49.99 at Staples. Within, I got all (I forget how many) civilizations and buildings that came with it. No problem so far. But then, when I bought the Play the World expansion pack, all I got for my $24.99 (half the cost of the original game), was three new city improvements, a great wonder, and a handful of other civilizations. Hardly worth it; I didn't get anythign close to 50 per-cent extra goodies for my 50 per-cent-of-the-cost investment. Not to mention they also made multiple installments of Civ2. The bottom line? I think that, as heartbreaking as the thought may be, I'm gonna stay playing Civ3 for a year or so after the Civ4 release, and I would suggest others do the same. Maybe Firaxis will take a hint and put out a full-fledged game at once instead of a mediocre one. Lastly, if they do make updates, here are some ideas for that. they should either make them free downloads, or if they want to charge, it should be only a few dollars. Or perhaps they can sell a subscription for unlimited updating your software for $X/month. Just don't get sucked in!

So what your saying is that Firaxis is a commercial enterprise that needs to make a profit to survive. What you describe is exactly the same as how any other gaming company operates in terms of expansion packs. I'll definately buy CIV and unless it is somehow completely botched despite the good things we've heard so far, I'll most likely buy the inevitable expansion packs, not beacause I've been 'sucked in' by their sneaky tactics but because the product it worth it. Gaming companies, like any other are going to try and get as much money from you as they can. If they make a good product buy it and keep they good companies alive, if the game is crap, don't buy the expansion or the sequel and the bad companies will fail.

	14-06-2005 04:39									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

That's a very odd post from a self-ascribed Bogdanovist.

	14-06-2005 04:41									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

yeah you got me on that one....

	14-06-2005 04:54									#8
	Put an end to popups!

How many hours have you played Civ3? Civ (all of them, actually, this applies to most games) are about the cheapest hobby a man can have IMO, providing you're not buying your PC especially for it.

Even if you only play one epic game, you've made a pretty damn good investment.

	14-06-2005 04:59									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: $49.99

that's how many 2-hours-long movie tickets?

	14-06-2005 05:12									#10
	Re: CIv4... Beware the planned obsolescence!!! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ew0054 But then, when I bought the Play the World expansion pack, all I got for my $24.99 (half the cost of the original game), was three new city improvements, a great wonder, and a handful of other civilizations. Hardly worth it; I didn't get anythign close to 50 per-cent extra goodies for my 50 per-cent-of-the-cost investment.

Play the World was mostly a multiplayer expansion, so if you don't do MP there isn't really mush SP content in it that could justify the buying of it, unless you are a hardcore fan and must have the latest. IIRC thre eresomehintsabout a second expansion already when PTW got out. You could have waited then.

I for sureamging to get Civ4 from start. I don'twant tofallbehind in modding.I really hope the SDK does what they promisses.

	14-06-2005 05:33									#11
	Re: CIv4... Beware the planned obsolescence!!! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ew0054 Being a die-hard Civ fan since the beginning (I own the DOS and SNES versions of CIv1), I can see how this company works.

What you're describing is not just how this company works, it's how every gaming company works. Probably about 70-80% of the new releases are expansion packs or sequels. And Hollywood isn't much better. For movies the "special editions", "director's cuts" and sequels and stuff probably take up a similar share. Like it or not, that's just how the entertainment industry works...

But if you don't want to spend your money on Civ, what do you want to spend it on? For those €45 you would likely pay for Civ4, you could probably buy 2-3 movie DVDs or music CDs (at least that's the case where I live), and how much entertainment do these offer? Maybe 3 hours each? So that's 10 hours max.

Other games then? As established, they use the same marketing strategy as Firaxis and Atari did for Civ3 (if not worse -- how many expansion packs haven't there been for The Sims?) Also, many games typically aim to offer about 20-30 hours worth of gameplay experience for the SP game (MP usually isn't factored in). Some offer more, some less, but that's probably a reasonable estimate of the average. Civ4 will offer 20 hours of gameplay per game. So even if you play only once with every civ, you still get 12-18 times the amount of gameplay out of Civ4 than out of the average video game. And that's not taking into account the various different map types, the scenarios, the mods, the MP options, etc.

I'll be the first to agree with you that the games industry is milking its customers. But trust me, even if they charge €80 for Civ4 and release 5 expansion packs, you'll likely still get a better deal than with most other games.

	14-06-2005 05:33									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

with the exception of that which God(or nature, or my mother, or whatever your religion would have you believe) has given us, I have found Civ3 to be one of the most cost effective ways to enjoy myself at $49.99

Not the cheapest way, but its less publically shameful (usually)

	14-06-2005 06:12									#13
	Support Apolyton

Indeed. I was overly disappointed to learn that Civ 3 was incomplete.

So, yes. I will wait as well.

	14-06-2005 06:23									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

First you should play Civ4. If you like the game, I dare you not to buy the expansion packs.

	14-06-2005 07:12									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I just hope modded code people have written doesn't get screwed up with the expansions.

	14-06-2005 07:28									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I just hope modded code people have written doesn't get screwed up with the expansions.

I hope the modded code people write to fix bugs gets used in expansion packs so the bugs don't appear again!

	14-06-2005 08:13									#17
	Remove this text

ew0054: Sounds like you should just wait for the 'Gold Edition' (or whatever they'll call it) to come out. That way you don't have to spend $150 or more on the game + expansions.

For me personally, I won't be able to wait that long!

	14-06-2005 08:17									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok guys don't get me wrong, I am a die-hard Civ fan! Before I got my job, I would literally stay up all night, mostly playing Civ3. I am not exaggerating here. I would wake up at around 2-3 in the afternoon, play for a little bit, then go to College, get back home at around 9, then play Civ3 until I went to bed at 9... the next morning. I made my living from selling stuff on eBay here and there.

But I can see it now.

Civ4 vanilla - $49.99
Civ4 expansion pack 1 - $24.99
Civ4 COMPLETE - $24.99
Civ4 beyond - $24.99
Civ4 overstuffed - $24.99
and so on

And I'm not knocking post-release support and updates. I just don't think they should be so expensive. I probably will end up buying Civ4 when it comes out (ok, no doubt!) but I think they should offer more features with each release, and at a lesser cost (not half the cost of the game itself).

	14-06-2005 08:18									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Also, consider that the improvements/wonder that was added in Play the World could have so easily been modded into the game, provided one knows what they do.

	14-06-2005 09:30									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I waited until Play the World and Conquest were included in one economically priced package before buying either expansion.

	14-06-2005 14:31									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Same here, although I got a really economically priced package of the Internet some time before I actually bought it...

	14-06-2005 15:19									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Buying a civ game actually saves money.

What's with that measly $50 for the original game? I spend that easily in 2 evenings in the beer garden or one in a better restaurant (not the Ritz, obviously ).

Now compare that with the many evenings of entertainment a civ game gives. I shudder in the imagination, what vast amount of money I would spend, if I would go in the pub instead of playing civ every single of these evenings.

Take your time, Firaxis. Make the original game cost $100 and each expansion $50 for all I care. But for Christs sake, do some extra bug squashing for the extra money. That'd be money well spent.

	14-06-2005 15:32									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: What's with that measly $50 for the original game? I spend that easily in 2 evenings in the beer garden or one in a better restaurant (not the Ritz, obviously ).

ONLY $50 in TWO nights? Gee, you're a cheap drunk eh?

I can spend easily $50 in one night at the pub!

Dale

	14-06-2005 15:36									#24
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Dale ONLY $50 in TWO nights? Gee, you're a cheap drunk eh? I can spend easily $50 in one night at the pub!

I wrote beer garden. They're somewhat cheaper than indoor pubs, obviously. I pay €3,40 for a beer, and that's a liter stein ("A Maß"). Have 4-5 of them (which should be enough...) and add some for a snack and service and you're at 25. Cheap, huh?

	14-06-2005 15:47									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Buying a civ game actually saves money. What's with that measly $50 for the original game? I spend that easily in 2 evenings in the beer garden or one in a better restaurant (not the Ritz, obviously ). Now compare that with the many evenings of entertainment a civ game gives. I shudder in the imagination, what vast amount of money I would spend, if I would go in the pub instead of playing civ every single of these evenings. Take your time, Firaxis. Make the original game cost $100 and each expansion $50 for all I care. But for Christs sake, do some extra bug squashing for the extra money. That'd be money well spent.

Too right.


Game On

	14-06-2005 15:57									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I wrote beer garden. They're somewhat cheaper than indoor pubs, obviously. I pay €3,40 for a beer, and that's a liter stein ("A Maß"). Have 4-5 of them (which should be enough...) and add some for a snack and service and you're at 25. Cheap, huh?

Yeah at litres that's okay. Over here a pint is $5 ($3 during happy-hour) for guiness.

	14-06-2005 16:05									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I live in a fairly cheap rural region, not in a city, that may explain the difference. Our village has two own breweries, with awesome beer I may add, and they run the pubs and beer gardens too, which reduces cost.

When I go out to the town for some cocktails (€3,30 per glass at happy hour, other days it's €5,50) and I have 10 of them and some food, I am also at €50 easily. This was meant the second part of my example.

$5 for a pint seems pretty harsh to me, that's almost Oktoberfest prices.

	14-06-2005 16:16									#28
	Support Apolyton

indeed civ saves you money and you lose weight, as shown in the civ3 forum

civ

	14-06-2005 16:29									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

i bought all the games and expansion sets on the day they were released (except civ1 i wasnt allowed to go downtown back then because i was like little 1990 right? then i was 5)

	14-06-2005 16:30									#30
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph $5 for a pint seems pretty harsh to me, that's almost Oktoberfest prices.

I think he may mean Australian dollars, which is what? €0,03?