16-06-2005 01:43									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So does everyone else. The issue is whether MS should sell censoring software there.

The whole point is while I think China's government organization is unethical, I will still do business and not boycott the market.

It is interesting that Agathon is indirectly supporting the US embargo on Cuba, though.

	16-06-2005 01:45									#272
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some corporations decide to establish corporate values statements. Now one could argue that their charter, and thus their legal obligations to there shareholders, entails maximizing ROI (really NPV, but lets not get into that here) subject to obeying the law of the country where they are chartered (a charter is a legal document, and clearly cannot obligate the corporation, as agent, to break the law) In which case corporate values statements are either bunkum, or illegal.

Now the usual counter is that a company, by keeping to its values, actually maximizes profits. The values embody certain broad principles that the company beleive must be followed in order to do so, one that must be inculcated in all managers and employees (the way, say, strategic goals need not be). Thus a commitment to a consumer service. A commitment to treating employees well. One may suspect that the values (to the extent that they are not merely pious items on paper) are not there only to maximize profits, but to also express the values of top management. This MIGHT present an agency-principle problem - but as long as there is an arguable connection to shareholder profit, I doubt much fuss is ever made.

Now its pretty easy to see why advocating for the free (as long as economically compensated) dissemination of information makes sense as a value for MS, and why that contributes to shareholder profits.

	16-06-2005 01:46									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The whole point is while I think China's government organization is unethical, I will still do business and not boycott the market. It is interesting that Agathon is indirectly supporting the US embargo on Cuba, though.

Maybe you missed the point that by making this software and selling it, MS is censoring speech. They aren't just trading with nations who abuse human rights.

	16-06-2005 01:51									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Maybe you missed the point that by making this software and selling it, MS is censoring speech. They aren't just trading with nations who abuse human rights.

Apolyton also censors speech, ban it as well.

MS is censoring speech on its private service under Chinese law...

	16-06-2005 01:56									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Apolyton also censors speech, ban it as well.

OMFG your so oppressed!

quote: MS is censoring speech on its private service under Chinese law...

Legal oppression. ****ing A great buddy. As long as they profit.

	16-06-2005 03:42									#276
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If Microsoft stops what it's doing, the Chinese people won't have any more freedom of speech, so there's no reason it should.

	16-06-2005 05:36									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious OMFG your so oppressed! Legal oppression. ****ing A great buddy. As long as they profit.

Profit
Loss

Communist Censorship

Communists getting on MS' case as an evil corporation for following Crazy Chinese Communist Censorship Laws

	16-06-2005 06:37									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why is that a good reason? Nazis should have free speech rights as well. And if people believe that to be a human rights infraction, shouldn't Yahoo get the same flack for doing business with the French?

Not in Germany. Not after what they did.

	16-06-2005 06:40									#279
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quote: I've said specifically that they should stop supplying tools that aid in genocide. This isn't a black/white case. Genocide clearly should not be aided, but that is not at all comparable to a corportation censoring the content on their private service under local law. You're essentially trying to make the argument that Microsoft is providing the duct tape to gag and rifles to shoot people who support democracy, when that's not the case at all.

That's what they're doing.

As for your argument about this being an academic matter. It isn't an academic matter any more than the repression of the Chinese government is an academic matter. In fact I bet that many people working within Microsoft are not too happy about this either.

You are a broken record. You have completely failed to deal with any of my arguments. Pretty funny actually.

	16-06-2005 06:40									#280
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Communists shouldn't have free speech in Russia. Not after what they did.

	16-06-2005 06:41									#281
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Americans shouldn't have free speech anywhere.

	16-06-2005 06:43									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You are a broken record. You have completely failed to deal with any of my arguments. Pretty funny actually.

You're right, it is funny. Because your arguments are not related to the true issue of -- why should Microsoft do this?

Go answer my 5 questions I've asked. If you can do that, you can convince me.

Otherwise, you're arguing something completely academic. You need to realize Microsoft has to answer to shareholders, so that needs to factor into your decision.

This isn't academia where all of your pointless work exists in a vacuum, this is the real world where real people's jobs are at stake. You need to address this as a real world problem.

Shareholders and their demand for ROI factor extremely heavily into this situation, and you've ignored it completely in favor of intellectual masturbation philosophical ethical crap that means nothing outside of your fantasy world.

	16-06-2005 07:12									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You're right, it is funny. Because your arguments are not related to the true issue of -- why should Microsoft do this? Go answer my 5 questions I've asked. If you can do that, you can convince me.

I already did, by showing that they were not relevant/

quote: Otherwise, you're arguing something completely academic. You need to realize Microsoft has to answer to shareholders, so that needs to factor into your decision.

You have a weird idea of how corporations work. Do you really think that being a CEO suddenly turns someone into a satanist? That sounds like puerile college leftism. Occasionally the capitalist system fails to ensure that human rights are respected. In those cases we rely on the human decency of the people running the companies (which is surprisingly robust) or, failing that, political action to compel them to behave.

quote: This isn't academia where all of your pointless work exists in a vacuum, this is the real world where real people's jobs are at stake. You need to address this as a real world problem.

And in the real world, the rights of a billion Chinese are at stake. Corporate ethics is a real world problem. Enron was a real world problem. If people don't complain about it, how are legislators going to be pressured into doing something about it. It's just not credible that the world's largest software company would not have a major effect on the Chinese peoples' quest for human rights if they refused to profit from this outrageous and Orwellian scheme.

In the real world, public pressure often results in a climbdown. This is not an academic issue, it is a political issue. I don't think you'd get much academic debate on this, because the issue is so clear cut in favour of my position.

quote: Shareholders and their demand for ROI factor extremely heavily into this situation, and you've ignored it completely in favor of intellectual masturbation philosophical ethical crap that means nothing outside of your fantasy world.

You overestimate the power of shareholders. One of the things that often gets brought up at shareholders' meetings is the ethical behaviour of the company. Jesus... even I can make the distinction between capitalism, the system that mandates such bad behaviour, and individual capitalists, who may not agree with what the system requires of them and may well wish to forgo profiting from unethical behaviour.

Your logic is the logic of the gas chambers. Forgive the decent people of the world if they don't agree with your appraisal of the situation.

	16-06-2005 07:36									#284
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quote: I already did, by showing that they were not relevant/

You don't think that corporate interests are relevant in corportations making a decision to leave the future largest market?

That's one hell of an assertion.

The problem here is we're not on the same page. I'm sitting here thinking you'd need to justify your assertion that they should leave the Chinese market in a realistic way -- why should shareholders agree to this? That's what needs to be argued in the real world.

But on the other hand, you're off in some weird dimension when corporations don't need to answer to shareholders and don't need to worry about their share price. Off in some weird dimension where if Microsoft decides to leave the Chinese marketplace, suddenly they will reverse their position on censorship and all will be well...

Microsoft is clearly the evil here, isn't it? Not the corrupt communist party in power?

Focus your academic angst on something more interesting. You've sunk as far as to blast corporations for following communist laws, why don't you just attack your own beliefs instead.

	16-06-2005 07:42									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You don't think that corporate interests are relevant in corportations making a decision to leave the future largest market? That's one hell of an assertion.

They aren't the only thing that is relevant. Note that I have not said that Microsoft should withdraw from China, nor should it cease any other activities in China. Not allowing their blogging service to be used in China is a minor thing. Sometimes a spine is worth having.

The world would be in a lot worse situation than it is today if corporations were the morally blind entities you seem to think they are (Jeez.. I'm a communist... I'm the one that's supposed to think that corporations are always evil). Sometimes they do do the right thing. This is not one of those cases. Microsoft's actions and those of Yahoo are in every way shameful.

	16-06-2005 07:50									#286
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You see it as shameful, I see it as practical. MS' practices will have zero impact of Chinese government policy.

The issue is with China and its laws, not with the companies enforcing local laws.

If MS started censoring its US Blogs removing references to freedom and democracy, I would agree with you. As it is right now, you're just being a silly fanboy.

	16-06-2005 07:53									#287
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Aggie, you haven't been answering me.

Situation 1: MS does what it's doing. Chinese people have a censored blogging service.

Situation 2: MS stops providing this service. Either someone else steps up and starts providing this service (in which case the Chinese people still have a censored blogging service) or no one does, in which case they have no blogging service.

HTF is 2 better than 1?

	16-06-2005 09:40									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Aggie, you haven't been answering me. Situation 1: MS does what it's doing. Chinese people have a censored blogging service. Situation 2: MS stops providing this service. Either someone else steps up and starts providing this service (in which case the Chinese people still have a censored blogging service) or no one does, in which case they have no blogging service. HTF is 2 better than 1?

Because in case 2 Microsoft isn't profiting from human rights violations. If someone else does it then no-one can point at Microsoft as being the bad guy.

Presumably western blogging services are cheaper and better than any domestic alternative. Or, if as you suggest there is no blogging service, then the Chinese government loses face with its people – who'll also find out that foreigners are refusing to collude with their own government's repressive practices. I think that would win Microsoft a few friends in China, and it would certainly be a major PR shot in the arm in the West. Less co-operation in the more BS practices of the Chinese government helps the dissidents.

Ideally, if all companies were to refuse to collude with unethical Chinese practices, the government would be in a much less advantageous position than it is. They allow Western companies in because they have something they want. It's not different in kind than if a western company had contracted to organize the Tiananmen massacre – making money from directly violating human rights sucks.

	16-06-2005 10:17									#289
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quote: Because in case 2 Microsoft isn't profiting from human rights violations. If someone else does it then no-one can point at Microsoft as being the bad guy.

Oh, so I get to feel good even though nobody's situation has actually improved? Intellectual masturbation

quote: Presumably western blogging services are cheaper and better than any domestic alternative.

I'm pretty sure they're free...

quote: Or, if as you suggest there is no blogging service, then the Chinese government loses face with its people – who'll also find out that foreigners are refusing to collude with their own government's repressive practices. I think that would win Microsoft a few friends in China, and it would certainly be a major PR shot in the arm in the West. Less co-operation in the more BS practices of the Chinese government helps the dissidents. Ideally, if all companies were to refuse to collude with unethical Chinese practices, the government would be in a much less advantageous position than it is. They allow Western companies in because they have something they want.

Effectively, you're saying that Microsoft shouldn't do it because it would have a positive effect. This is absurd.

	16-06-2005 10:26									#290
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quote: Oh, so I get to feel good even though nobody's situation has actually improved? Intellectual masturbation

I don't think that abstaining from doing bad things is necessarily intellectual masturbation. Sometimes we can't control the behaviour of others who will make sure the bad things happen anyway, but it's fallacious to infer that this somehow licences us to do the bad thing. If you want a concise statement of what Asher can't get his head around, the previous sentence is it.

quote: I'm pretty sure they're free...

Don't you have to pay for the premium deal?

quote: Effectively, you're saying that Microsoft shouldn't do it because it would have a positive effect. This is absurd.

That their not doing it may have a positive effect. Very possibly. I guess you do enjoy defending China's authoritarian practices so much. And to think that I usually get done for the same thing.

Their doing it will have a negative effect, which they will be responsible for.

	16-06-2005 10:30									#291
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quote: If you want a concise statement of what Asher can't get his head around, the previous sentence is it.

Asher can get his head around it, but would still like you to describe how you would convince shareholders to neglect profitable markets that have no impact on China's human rights policies just so you can have a warm fuzzy feeling inside of you.

You're having a hard time discovering that while doing the thing to make a futile moral stand leaves you feeling nice and warm and tingly, other people would like to keep their jobs instead.

	16-06-2005 10:30									#292
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quote: I don't think that abstaining from doing bad things is necessarily intellectual masturbation. Sometimes we can't control the behaviour of others who will make sure the bad things happen anyway, but it's fallacious to infer that this somehow licences us to do the bad thing. If you want a concise statement of what Asher can't get his head around, the previous sentence is it.

I think it's intellectual masturbation to praise yourself from doing something that has no positive effect, or for refraining from doing something with no negative effect.

quote: That their not doing it may have a positive effect. Very possibly. I guess you do enjoy defending China's authoritarian practices so much. And to think that I usually get done for the same thing.

I'm defending China here?

My point is that, no matter what MS does, they will not be able to post those words in their blogs. And no matter what MS does, the Party isn't likely to actually feel any pressure.

	16-06-2005 10:31									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Blah blah blah, take your dated Linux FUD elsehwere. It was operator error that crashed the database system, not Windows NT. The Database was "Standard Monitoring Control System application" (SMCS) developed by Canadian Aviation Electronics Inc. of Toronto.

What else did I say ? Or don't you read what is written in brackets ? And it was a goddam joke , get a sense of humour . You as well as I know that I'm not serious , though the incident I narrated is true .

	16-06-2005 10:35									#294
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quote: I think it's intellectual masturbation to praise yourself from doing something that has no positive effect, or for refraining from doing something with no negative effect.

That's the fallacy right there. You aren't refraining from doing something with no negative effect. You are refraining from doing something with a negative effect, it's just that some other bastard has decided to do it. That doesn't justify you doing it after all.

Your position is equivalent to the guy who rapes a woman because his friend said that he would do it if the original guy didn't and then tries to excuse himself on the grounds that she would have been raped anyway.

quote: My point is that, no matter what MS does, they will not be able to post those words in their blogs. And no matter what MS does, the Party isn't likely to actually feel any pressure.

And this suffers from the same fallacy. Even if the outcome will be the same, you still aren't supposed to do it. To deny this leads to crazy counterexamples like the one I posted above.

Of course, you could be a complete evil cretin and argue that corporations have the right to engage in any unethical activity they can get away with as long as it's profitable, but that would make you an *******.

	16-06-2005 10:37									#295
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quote: Of course, you could be a complete evil cretin and argue that corporations have the right to engage in any unethical activity they can get away with as long as it's profitable, but that would make you an *******.

It makes you an ******* to tell a company to make less money to make political statements that have no impact on the world.

	16-06-2005 10:43									#296
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Even Google , with their statement of "Do no Evil" , still censors their search engine in China . Does that make them evil ? According to Aggie , it does .

If it does , then Aggie should stop using Google , because he says it is unethical for an entity to follow local laws if those laws are unethical . Therefore , using Google is unethical for Aggie , because Google follows the unethical laws of . Therefore , Aggie cannot use Google , because using it would endorse a company that is evil .

Similarly , Aggie cannot use anything that came out of IBM after WW2 , because they helped the Nazis . They also canot use Intel chips , because Intel collaborates with the big , evil MS ( also because MS was blessed by the Nazi-helping IBM ) . Aggie , therefore , cannot use Apple's computers , because Apple is now going to start using the evil-by-association Intel's chips . Thus Apple is evil , at least for Aggie .

Where now , Agathorn ?

	16-06-2005 10:45									#297
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quote: It makes you an ******* to tell a company to make less money to make political statements that have no impact on the world.

I'm not surprised you would say this. Your entire political stance could be described as whiny selfishness. You seem to have no capacity to see any issue beyond how it affects you. I've lost count of the number of times you've whined about gay rights, and stuff that affects you while simultaneously and inconsistently supporting the persecution of others.

The funny thing is that you don't even seem to see anything strange about it.

	16-06-2005 10:49									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'm not surprised you would say this. Your entire political stance could be described as whiny selfishness.

How is "whiny" apt, you're the one whining about this whole issue.

Selfishness is also not apt. I'm all about practicality, you're obviously an idealist.

If my actions have no impact, I won't do them. If MS' withdrawl from the Chinese market doesn't alter China's policies (it won't), why bother doing it?

There's no result, there's no point to doing it.

quote: You seem to have no capacity to see any issue beyond how it affects you. I've lost count of the number of times you've whined about gay rights, and stuff that affects you while simultaneously and inconsistently supporting the persecution of others. The funny thing is that you don't even seem to see anything strange about it.

This has nothing to do with me. You've even tried this angle before in this thread, about censoring homosexuality -- I told you the same answer then, didn't I?

This is about you being an idealist and wanting a serious company to make a futile idealistic move to sacrifice the company's performance. That's being impractical, and unrealistic.

It has nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with you being an idealistic lefty university instructor who has no concept of what businesses are actually all about. You lack the ability to discern the difference between an academic argument and one that has to fly in the real world.

And it's exactly reasons like this that ethics panels full of philosophy-majoring twits are a waste of everyone's time.

	16-06-2005 10:50									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I've lost count of the number of times you've whined about gay rights, and stuff that affects you while simultaneously and inconsistently supporting the persecution of others. The funny thing is that you don't even seem to see anything strange about it.

Pot meet Kettle. Kettle meet pot.

	16-06-2005 21:04									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How is "whiny" apt, you're the one whining about this whole issue. Selfishness is also not apt. I'm all about practicality, you're obviously an idealist. If my actions have no impact, I won't do them. If MS' withdrawl from the Chinese market doesn't alter China's policies (it won't), why bother doing it? There's no result, there's no point to doing it. This has nothing to do with me. You've even tried this angle before in this thread, about censoring homosexuality -- I told you the same answer then, didn't I? This is about you being an idealist and wanting a serious company to make a futile idealistic move to sacrifice the company's performance. That's being impractical, and unrealistic. It has nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with you being an idealistic lefty university instructor who has no concept of what businesses are actually all about. You lack the ability to discern the difference between an academic argument and one that has to fly in the real world. And it's exactly reasons like this that ethics panels full of philosophy-majoring twits are a waste of everyone's time.

So we've moved from "Microsoft only has to obey local laws" to "profit at all costs is right" to "only philosophers would complain". All are patently ridiculous "arguments".

Looks like someone is floundering, and it's not me.