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Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 19:41
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Microsoft hates Freedom and Democracy!!! Full PM-box? Change here!

As if we didn't know, but now it's offficial

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4088702.stm

Hey, at least "boobies" isn't blocked.

quote:
Microsoft censors Chinese blogs

Chinese bloggers posting their thoughts via Microsoft's net service face restrictions on what they can write.

Weblog entries on some parts of Microsoft's MSN site in China using words such as "freedom", "democracy" and "demonstration" are being blocked.

Chinese bloggers already face strict controls and must register their online journal with Chinese authorities.

Microsoft said the company abided by the laws, regulations and norms of each country in which it operates.

Also being restricted on the free parts of the site are journal entries that mention "human rights" and "Taiwan independence". Those using these banned words or writing entries that are pornographic or contain sensitive information get a pop-up warning that reads: "This message contains a banned expression, please delete this expression."

Microsoft's MSN Spaces site is run by its joint venture partner, the state-backed Shanghai Alliance Investment Ltd. Microsoft said people who used its MSN Spaces service were required to abide by its code of conduct.

The code says that users are not allowed to upload, post, or distribute any content which "violates any local and national laws that apply to your location".

"Microsoft is a multi-national business and as such needs to manage the reality of operating in countries around the world," a Microsoft spokesperson told the BBC News website.

The restrictions operate on the free online Spaces area of the MSN China site where many people have created journals or weblogs.


Microsoft is being pragmatic in its approach. It is not up to it to make political statements
William Makower, Panlogic

China recently introduced stringent regulations that require all blog owners to register their web journal with the state by 30 June. The regulations require the writer of a blog to identify themselves to the authorities.

According to Reporters Without Borders, China is using a system called Night Crawler to patrol web journals and make sure that only registered blogs are published. Unregistered blogs will be shut down.

"Following Yahoo, here is a second American internet giant giving way to the Chinese authorities and agreeing to self-censorship", said the group in a statement.

"The lack of ethics on the part of these companies is extremely worrying. Their management frequently justifies collaboration with Chinese censorship by saying that all they are doing is obeying local legislation."

"We believe that this argument does not hold water and that these multinationals must respect certain basic ethical principles, in whatever country they are operating."


Microsoft is not alone in co-operating with the Chinese authorities to police what people can do online.

Both Yahoo and Google have been criticised for similar activities and restricting what people can search for and read online. "If you want to deal with the Chinese, you have to deal with their rules," said William Makower, CEO of Panlogic a marketing consultancy with operations in China.

"It is all very well to have high-minded ideals about how you want the Chinese to behave, but opposing China is going to be counter-productive."

"Microsoft is being pragmatic in its approach," said Mr Makower. "It is not up to it to make political statements."

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 19:54 Visit Asher's homepage!
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It's standard practice for any company operating in that communist hellhole, Google and Yahoo as well.

Communism.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 19:59
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If they were real communists, they'd ban Disney.

DerSchwarzfalke is offline DerSchwarzfalke
Chieftain
USA
Jul 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:01 Visit DerSchwarzfalke's homepage!
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Booo-urns

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:09
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So much for Microsoft being in favour of choice.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:12
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Why are we bashing Microsoft when the nice bunch of people in Beijing Agathon usually defends are the ones forcing them to do it?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:14 Visit Asher's homepage!
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I think it's a misguided troll.

It's one of the laws companies have to abide by to do business in their communist society.

Communists.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why are we bashing Microsoft when the nice bunch of people in Beijing Agathon usually defends are the ones forcing them to do it?


Where did I ever say I agreed with everything they did? I just don't see them as the evil international threat that you do. Terror of the Tongs and all that...

Still in America you have your "free" media do the censoring.

Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:22
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Freedom and human rights are banned expressions in China. How can they not be evil?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
Question  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Still in America you have your "free" media do the censoring.
What does that have to do with the fact that it is the PRC forcing the censorship issue in this case?

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
What does that have to do with the fact that it is the PRC forcing the censorship issue in this case?


And you think that is less worrying than the culture of fear that seems to have swamped the US media? Or Shrub and company having a homosexual prostitute pretend to be a journalist and ask them easy questions?

Besides... the Chinese government has a lot less control than people suppose.

But still to them.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
And you think that is less worrying than the culture of fear that seems to have swamped the US media?
I'm sorry. I thought you started a thread about China forcing MS to censor blogs. I should have just assumed that was code for the US.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm sorry. I thought you started a thread about China forcing MS to censor blogs. I should have just assumed that was code for the US.


And again you avoid the issue. It must be galling for you to be thought irrelevant by so many.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:37 Visit Asher's homepage!
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The issue is rampant Communist censorship.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:37 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why are we bashing Microsoft when the nice bunch of people in Beijing Agathon usually defends are the ones forcing them to do it?


Forcing them?

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
The issue is rampant Communist censorship.


No the issue is Microsoft's evilness. I started the thread, so I get to say what it's about. Now **** off threadjacker!!!

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


And again you avoid the issue. It must be galling for you to be thought irrelevant by so many.
The issue seems to be your need to troll about MS censoring blogs (when they are being forced to do it). If you had wished to discuss the US media, perhaps you could have started the thread out like that.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Forcing them?


Dino only thinks that things like this are forced when the Chinese do it. He obviously forgets that MS has a choice not to sell its products in China. He's always defending that kind of freedom when it suits him.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:43
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Y'know the CCP are famous for saying "The White Devils must sell their products in our country, or else!!!!"

Google and Yahoo are no better. Disney is worse and Rupert Murdoch the worst of all.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:43 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Dino only thinks that things like this are forced when the Chinese do it. He obviously forgets that MS has a choice not to sell its products in China. He's always defending that kind of freedom when it suits him.

Why would they not sell their products in China if it will produce a profit for them?

The Chinese government is forcing them to censor in China. MS does business in China, it would make no sense for them to withdraw from one of the fastest growing markets.

The issue is the Chinese government and their censorship laws, not the businesses forced to compete under those laws.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 20:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Forcing them?
Expressions of freedom and human rights are banned in China and MS has to obey local laws.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher

Why would they not sell their products in China if it will produce a profit for them?

The Chinese government is forcing them to censor in China. MS does business in China, it would make no sense for them to withdraw from one of the fastest growing markets.


But you can't say that they are forced to do it, if you follow the definition of compulsion used by the political right (that's the point of my previous post). These are the same people who think that there's nothing wrong with threatening to withhold welfare checks if someone won't take a dangerous or degrading job. Or asserting that people should not be "forced" not to discriminate against homosexuals.

Would you think it was OK if Microsoft agreed to censor all words relating to homosexuality? What if I owned a company and I could make more money by taking up a contract as long as I sacked my gay employees or prevented my product being used to discuss homosexuality? Do you think I would not be culpable in such a case? Sure, the people making the demands are also culpable, but I would be too for going along with it.

quote:
The issue is the Chinese government and their censorship laws, not the businesses forced to compete under those laws.


No it isn't. That is an interesting issue, but this is about western corporations being mealy-mouthed about human rights when it suits them. Unlike welfare recipients, they can actually afford to stick up for themselves – and that makes all the difference.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

Donate to the Red Cross
Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 21:53 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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so if microsoft was around in ww2 what kind of software would it build for the nazis?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 21:56 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Expressions of freedom and human rights are banned in China and MS has to obey local laws.


The law forbids them from selling non-censoring software. It doesn't force them to sell censoring software.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
But you can't say that they are forced to do it, if you follow the definition of compulsion used by the political right (that's the point of my previous post). These are the same people who think that there's nothing wrong with threatening to withhold welfare checks if someone won't take a dangerous or degrading job. Or asserting that people should not be "forced" not to discriminate against homosexuals.


Your argument is bullshit. It's on the same level as the Puritan's "you're free to practice your religion, somewhere else".

Zopperoni is offline Zopperoni
Emperor

Dec 2000
time: 06:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
so if microsoft was around in ww2 what kind of software would it build for the nazis?

DOS, Deutsches Operation System. Followed by Fenstern 45.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 22:00
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On the plus side, Microsoft isn't Apple.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 22:05
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Aggie shoots and ..... Ouch how'd that foot get in the way.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 22:11 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
so if microsoft was around in ww2 what kind of software would it build for the nazis?

Not sure what kind of argument this is.

IBM supplied tons of hardware to the Nazis, for instance, that they ended up using to assist in the census to round up homosexuals and jews.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 14-06-2005 22:12
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Hm. Aggie's position seems to be that M$ should keep out of the PRC till the later tidies up. This would help whom, exactly?

 
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