14-06-2005 22:15									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But you can't say that they are forced to do it, if you follow the definition of compulsion used by the political right (that's the point of my previous post).

They are forced to do it in that region that they do business in. It's a market, they follow the local laws.

That's how business works.

quote: Would you think it was OK if Microsoft agreed to censor all words relating to homosexuality?

I'm not saying it's okay, I very much disagree with the Chinese laws. If China had laws forcing them to censor all words relating to homosexuality, of course it would be okay for Microsoft to abide by those laws in that region.

quote: No it isn't. That is an interesting issue, but this is about western corporations being mealy-mouthed about human rights when it suits them.

Unreal.

Microsoft doesn't dictate human rights policy in China. The Communist party in China is responsible for that.

China is a rapidly growing market of increasing importance, and Microsoft would shoot itself in the foot by not participating in that market. And to participate in that market, they need to follow the local laws.

The problem is the Communist part of China, not the corporations abiding by the law.

	14-06-2005 22:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Hm. Aggie's position seems to be that M$ should keep out of the PRC till the later tidies up. This would help whom, exactly?

Linux.

It's really astonishing that Aggie stoops to the level of using human rights issues to further his vendetta against Microsoft.

	14-06-2005 22:16									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The law forbids them from selling non-censoring software. It doesn't force them to sell censoring software.

Who would gain by them not selling the software/service?

All such software/service needs to be censored in China.

That's where the "forcing" part comes in. Of course they're not being forced to SELL it there, but they do sell it there because it's a rapidly growing market. And when they sell it there, they are FORCED to censor it.

	14-06-2005 23:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Who would gain by them not selling the software/service? All such software/service needs to be censored in China. That's where the "forcing" part comes in. Of course they're not being forced to SELL it there, but they do sell it there because it's a rapidly growing market. And when they sell it there, they are FORCED to censor it.

They have the option to sell software in China or not. If they don't no one will die. The only thing that will happen is that their stockholders may not make as much. If that's your definition of being forced to do something then you think people are forced to make profit.

	15-06-2005 00:00									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Your argument is bullshit. It's on the same level as the Puritan's "you're free to practice your religion, somewhere else".

You ought to read more carefully, boy.

	15-06-2005 00:06									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They have the option to sell software in China or not. If they don't no one will die. The only thing that will happen is that their stockholders may not make as much. If that's your definition of being forced to do something then you think people are forced to make profit.

That's not what I'm saying.

No one is forcing them to sell there, except perhaps the shareholders. China is a rapidly growing market of increasing importance, and MS not selling products there would give Linux a huge, huge advantage in every market.

It's in the company's interest to provide product to consumers who want them. That's the goal of a business -- to make money.

Companies must abide by local laws. If the local laws include censorship, that's not the fault of the company for complying.

The fact that the commies here are relentlessly trying to blame an "evil corporation" for simply complying with laws set by the communist government is ridiculously telling of the mindset of people who think a communist government could actually work...

	15-06-2005 00:24									#37
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quote: The fact that the commies here are relentlessly trying to blame an "evil corporation" for simply complying with laws set by the communist government is ridiculously telling of the mindset of people who think a communist government could actually work...

I've read this sentence three times now but it still doesn't make sense to me...

	15-06-2005 00:25									#38
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PEBKAC.

	15-06-2005 00:26									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: The fact that the commies here are relentlessly trying to blame an "evil corporation" for simply complying with laws set by the communist government is ridiculously telling of the mindset of people who think a communist government could actually work... I've read this sentence three times now but it still doesn't make sense to me...

That's because it doesn't really make sense. I'm already tired of this thread, since I'll have to spend ages explaining simple logical distinctions to people who won't understand them anyway.

	15-06-2005 00:27									#40
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You're tired of this thread because you can't defend the ridiculous assertion that a company abiding by local law set by communists is evil.

	15-06-2005 00:30									#41
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I already defended it by pointing out that your analysis of compulsion was severely lacking and that it goes counter to that of all people who share your fascist views in any case.

When you repeat the same mistake three times, it gets boring. I come here to enjoy myself, not to waste my time making up for your educational deficiencies.

	15-06-2005 00:33									#42
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Now you're calling me fascist.

Oh Aggie...

	15-06-2005 00:35									#43
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I've called you fascist since I started posting here, what's new?

	15-06-2005 00:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Asher PEBKAC.

	15-06-2005 00:36									#45
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Apparently nothing.

I still think you're a complete embarassment for UofT, or perhaps the perfect example of the kind of rubbish that passes for teaching Philosophy in today's universities.

	15-06-2005 00:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The fact that the commies here are relentlessly trying to blame an "evil corporation" for simply complying with laws set by the communist government is ridiculously telling of the mindset of people who think a communist government could actually work...

I don't get what you are saying here either, but profiting from oppressing the Chinese people certainly is no less evil than what the govt is doing.

	15-06-2005 00:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't get what you are saying here either, but profiting from oppressing the Chinese people certainly is no less evil than what the govt is doing.

Either way the Chinese people are being oppressed -- all software must meet the same censorship options.

Again, the problem is with the Chinese government and the laws they force everyone to abide by, not the law-abiding companies.

	15-06-2005 00:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I still think you're a complete embarassment for UofT, or perhaps the perfect example of the kind of rubbish that passes for teaching Philosophy in today's universities.

Nice try at changing the subject. No sale.

	15-06-2005 00:42									#49
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The troll potential of the quoted article is immense

	15-06-2005 00:42									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nice try at changing the subject. No sale.

It was an aside.

You're the one avoiding any discussion on it.

	15-06-2005 00:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij

Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

	15-06-2005 00:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Either way the Chinese people are being oppressed -- all software must meet the same censorship options. Again, the problem is with the Chinese government and the laws they force everyone to abide by, not the law-abiding companies.

Oh yeah, sure. And if someone hires a hit man to assasinate someone the hit man isn't a problem.

	15-06-2005 00:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The troll potential of the quoted article is immense

Yes it is, isn't it. I'd hoped for a better response, but it's come down to right wing people complaining about the sort of coercion that they spend most of their time denying the existence of.

How ironic.

	15-06-2005 00:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh yeah, sure. And if someone hires a hit man to assasinate someone the hit man isn't a problem.

Don't waste your time Kid. He's impervious to logic. What will happen now is that he will repeat essentially the same proposition over and over again in an orgy of question begging.

	15-06-2005 00:47									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yes it is, isn't it. I'd hoped for a better response, but it's come down to right wing people complaining about the sort of coercion that they spend most of their time denying the existence of. How ironic.

Chinese Communist Government enacts laws censoring human rights expressions, forces any companies with such products to abide by local laws.

Companies abide by laws set by Chinese Communist Government.

Communist posters on Apolyton call the law-abiding corporations evil and assert anyone who doesn't see this is impervious to logic?

	15-06-2005 00:51									#56
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My, my, my... One wonders if Agathon started the thread so he could indulge in his own masochistic self-pwnage.

Blaming Microsoft for China's policies and then quickly trying to change the subjec to the US media? I don't think Kid has self-pwned himself this badly, this quickly.

	15-06-2005 00:55									#57
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Because you assume that the corporations are coerced into selling their stuff in China. It's nice that you bring up IBM and the holocaust. If that was true, it's quite similar and just as objectionable. No-one is forcing any corporation to sell its products in China.

Corporations are saying: "Oh.. we detest attempts to silence political speech, but if there's money in it, we'll overlook our scruples and blame the Chinese government."

The point is that blaming the Chinese government doesn't absolve western corporations from blame. Blame is not a zero sum game. Your position is consistent with western companies killing people to make their products if that is "the law" somewhere. Of course they can't be to blame in the Asherverse.

As I said before, it would be no different to a company I ran engaging in homophobic practices to secure a contract because it was "the law". Better to pass up the contract.

	15-06-2005 00:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui My, my, my... One wonders if Agathon started the thread so he could indulge in his own masochistic self-pwnage. Blaming Microsoft for China's policies and then quickly trying to change the subjec to the US media? I don't think Kid has self-pwned himself this badly, this quickly.

Um who did that?

I don't blame them for China's polices (that would be absurd), just for colluding with them to make money. That's a big difference.

	15-06-2005 00:57									#59
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quote: As I said before, it would be no different to a company I ran engaging in homophobic practices to secure a contract because it was "the law". Better to pass up the contract.

If the laws of the country you do business in forbid hiring homosexuals, you do not hire homosexuals.

Contrary to popular belief, Microsoft doesn't hold a lot of sway in the Chinese government. They gain nothing and lose a lot by refusing to sell products there.

	15-06-2005 00:59									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Um who did that? I don't blame them for China's polices (that would be absurd), just for colluding with them to make money. That's a big difference.

No, you're blaming them for abiding by local law.

For some reason, you get all up in arms of US companies violate law (like, say, Enron), but you seem to think it's in company's best interests to not abide by the laws sometimes?

Microsoft's policy is to abide by local law in every country they operate in. Period.

That's what they're doing, and that's not wrong. If you've got a beef with the laws, deal with the communists who made them, and not the people abiding by them.