15-06-2005 02:09									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Only if you think it is always ethical to trade with people no matter what their laws are. That seems to me a patently absurd position that invites obvious counterexamples (like the Jew killing one). Again, please stop treating this like it is about trade. It's not. Most trade with China is fine. This is about colluding with human rights abuses.

It's about you getting your rocks off criticising a company you have a vendetta against.

This kind of news was public long ago with other companies -- Google (Blogger), eBay, Amazon, Yahoo, etc.

Now when it's Microsoft that does it, you try to make it a big deal.

You're too transparant.

You want Microsoft to lose out on many billions of dollars for taking a futile "ethical stance" that has no impact on any human rights issues in China.

This is why HP failed under Carly's watch, FWIW. So out of touch.

	15-06-2005 02:17									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Or maybe the point is the Chinese are free not to buy Microsoft products?

That's absurd. I am not free to buy a Santos football shirt in Canada. Should the club be forced to sell them here, even if they don't want to.

quote: Not at all. My point was I think a lot of things are unethical, yet they remain a valid business.

No-one disagrees that some unethical acts are profitable. But it is absurd to admit that something is unethical and then attempt to justify profiting from it. Shall I start distributing rape films?

quote: The entire closed nature of Apple's business is unethical.

Don't exaggerate, please.

quote: Don't they even sue sites (censor, if you will) for talking about things Apple wants to be hush-hush?

Yes, and trolls aside, I think that sucks.

quote: Please go start a thread about how Apple hates Freedom and Democracy -- it's certainly far more apt than criticism of Microsoft for following laws.

There's nothing illegal about Apple's lawsuits, but that's not the point.

quote: It absolutely is. If your actions have no effect, what's the point in putting yourself at a major competitive disadvantage?

(1) Because it is unethical. That's like saying: "No matter what happens, someone will rape this woman, therefore it's OK if I do it". That has no effect on the outcome (she gets raped), but are you seriously saying that this should allow you to rape her?

Or how about this case: "I'll go out of business if I don't start selling heroin to kids. No matter what happens, someone will sell it to them anyway. Therefore it is right to sell heroin to kids."

**** man... see a doctor... that's seriously warped thinking.

(2) It's not clear that they will have no effect. It certainly won't help. A refusal by major software companies, including Google and MS, would do more to help human rights I think, by forcing the Chinese to explore more expensive and less efficient options.

	15-06-2005 02:22									#93
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Aggie, you're the utilitarian. Obviously an act should be judged by its outcome.

	15-06-2005 02:24									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's about you getting your rocks off criticising a company you have a vendetta against.

Not really. It would be more about me seeing the morning news and thinking "that'll get Asher as angry as a wet hen".

quote: This kind of news was public long ago with other companies -- Google (Blogger), eBay, Amazon, Yahoo, etc. Now when it's Microsoft that does it, you try to make it a big deal.

Have I excused the others? No. Do I think they're as bad? Yes.

quote: You're too transparant. You want Microsoft to lose out on many billions of dollars for taking a futile "ethical stance" that has no impact on any human rights issues in China.

quote: MICROSOFT CORPORATION MEMO: BALLMER TO GATES TOP SECRET: BILL ALERT!!! PHILOSOPHY INSTRUCTOR IN CANADA WANTS MICROSOFT TO LOSE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. THIS IS A SERIOUS THREAT TO OUR BUSINESS!!! LOOK! HE'S POSTED ABOUT IT ON AN INTERNET GAMING FORUM!! IF WE DON'T STOP HIM SOON, WE WILL LOSE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS!!!! IMMEDIATE ACTION!!!! ALL MAC USING PHILOSOPHY INSTRUCTORS IN CANADA ARE TO BE PUT UNDER IMMEDIATE WATCH. WE MUST STOP THIS CANCER BEFORE IT CAN SPREAD!!! IN PANIC STEVE BALLMER PS. IMMEDIATE ACTION!!! BUY MORE FEMALE UNDERWEAR TO PUT ON OUR HEADS!!! PPS. I NEED A NEW KEYBOARD FOR MY MAC. SPILLLED CHILI OVER THE LAST ONE. WILL CHARGE TO EXPENSE ACCOUNT!!!

Or... I could just think it is immoral to make money from abuses of human rights. I guess you think it is fine. How awful....

	15-06-2005 02:25									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Aggie, you're the utilitarian. Obviously an act should be judged by its outcome.

Them's fighting words, young Skywalker. I am a virtue ethicist tanks vvery muich

	15-06-2005 03:31									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's about you getting your rocks off criticising a company you have a vendetta against. This kind of news was public long ago with other companies -- Google (Blogger), eBay, Amazon, Yahoo, etc. Now when it's Microsoft that does it, you try to make it a big deal. You're too transparant. You want Microsoft to lose out on many billions of dollars for taking a futile "ethical stance" that has no impact on any human rights issues in China. This is why HP failed under Carly's watch, FWIW. So out of touch.

Exactly. I don't remember a thread when other companies did the same thing. I wonder why?

	15-06-2005 03:34									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's amazing that you think THAT is why we have such a trade deficit with China. Hell, without them buying up our dollars, I'd hate to see where the US economy would be. And you are saying our companies should act out our 'moral beliefs' by getting more goods from Africa and the Middle East? WTF?

Except if we didn't have an open trade policy with China then western companies wouldn't be lining up to take advantage of cheap Chinese labor, would they? No market access means no one willing to build factories there. I consider Israel and Turkey to be part of the middle east and they have fairly good human rights histories while small countries such as Lebennon, Kuwait, the UAE, and Oman would also make great trading partners. India has just as much spare labor as China while Africa and Latin America would also help supply labor for the global capitalist machine. We can function without Chinese labor and without feeding the monster which is communist China.

	15-06-2005 03:41									#99
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quote: We can function without Chinese labor and without feeding the monster which is communist China.

If you really think we can do it without a decade long recession, then you have some delusions. We have a ton of money tied up in China and it won't be easy to move. It's an incredibly large market, and you'll be asking companies to shut themselves off from 1/6th of the worlds population.

And ask yourself this. What do you prefer? Today's capitalist China or Mao's closed off China? I know I'd take the present variety.

	15-06-2005 04:00									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually China and Japan were involved in buying up dollars to keep the dollar from falling too fast. The Chinese, especially, because, IIRC, their currency is pegged to the dollar.

The Chinese only buy dollars from exporting firms. You have to export from China to the US to sell these dollars to China. That's different from what the Japanese do.

	15-06-2005 04:06									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When every other country in the world trades with them? When they are under no sanctions by the UN? Yes, it's ethical to trade with people even if you think their laws suck.

It may be ethical to trade with people who abuse human rights. It's not ethical to ABUSE HUMAN rights, which is what microsoft will be doing by censoring speech.

	15-06-2005 04:09									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I consider Israel and Turkey to be part of the middle east and they have fairly good human rights histories

Oh lordy no.

	15-06-2005 04:37									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It may be ethical to trade with people who abuse human rights. It's not ethical to ABUSE HUMAN rights, which is what microsoft will be doing by censoring speech.

Isn't that what Yahoo is doing as well by not allowing French or German citizens from buying or selling Nazi memorabilia? Why is it ok for Yahoo to 'abuse human rights' by denying freedom of speech due to the laws of a country it does business in, but not for Microsoft?

	15-06-2005 04:45									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Isn't that what Yahoo is doing as well by not allowing French or German citizens from buying or selling Nazi memorabilia? Why is it ok for Yahoo to 'abuse human rights' by denying freedom of speech due to the laws of a country it does business in, but not for Microsoft?

Because the German people are generally as free as anybody else. The Chinese people aren't.

	15-06-2005 04:52									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Because the German people are generally as free as anybody else. The Chinese people aren't.

So human rights violations only matter in areas where people are not 'generally free'? So you think the Abu Ghirab and Gitmo abuses don't matter because the American people are as generally free as anybody else?

What an utterly silly view.

	15-06-2005 04:54									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So human rights violations only matter in areas where people are not 'generally free'? So you think the Abu Ghirab and Gitmo abuses don't matter because the American people are as generally free as anybody else? What an utterly silly view.

Not being able to buy nazigear is not a serious abuse of free speech, and no amount of dramatization on your part will make it so.

	15-06-2005 05:01									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Not being able to buy nazigear is not a serious abuse of free speech, and no amount of dramatization on your part will make it so.

Ah, I see. So it isn't a serious abuse of free speech if you don't agree with the speech. Isn't that what free speech was supposed to combat? People like you making value judgements on what is allowable?

The violation on free speech is the inability to issue support for the Nazis, and Yahoo is being complicit by banning people from purchasing Nazi gear.

But, while I think that is a disgusting violation of human rights, I have no problem with Yahoo follow the laws of France.

	15-06-2005 05:05									#108
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Btw, Kid and Oerdin, are you posting on computers with Microsoft products?!

OMG!!! You are supporting COmmunist China... EVIL BACKERS of human rights ABUSES!

	15-06-2005 05:06									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, Kid and Oerdin, are you posting on computers with Microsoft products?! OMG!!! You are supporting COmmunist China... EVIL BACKERS of human rights ABUSES!

What if it's a pirated copy?

	15-06-2005 05:07									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah, I see. So it isn't a serious abuse of free speech if you don't agree with the speech. Isn't that what free speech was supposed to combat? People like you making value judgements on what is allowable?

The purpose of free speech is to give people a voice against oppression. I don't see how being a Nazi meets that goal.

	15-06-2005 05:12									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The purpose of free speech is to give people a voice against oppression. I don't see how being a Nazi meets that goal.

No, the purpose of free speech is to allow for open discourse and not discriminate against people on the basis of their political beliefs. That includes the popular as well as the unpopular beliefs. It is so the government is not the arbiter of what is 'correct' speech.

Naziism is just as protected by free speech as liberal democratic values, and should be.

	15-06-2005 05:12									#112
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd What if it's a pirated copy?

Well... in that case, you could be supporting Microsoft's competitors by buying a copy of their software .

	15-06-2005 05:15									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, the purpose of free speech is to allow for open discourse and not discriminate against people on the basis of their political beliefs.

That's an intermediate goal, not an end goal. The only value of that is to either meet the end goal or free speech for the sake of free speech itself.

	15-06-2005 05:20									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's an intermediate goal, not an end goal. The only value of that is to either meet the end goal or free speech for the sake of free speech itself.

No, that's the END goal. And there is nothing wrong having free speech for the sake of free speech itself. We have freedom to live for the sake of life itself. As autonomous beings, we should have the right to hold any political beliefs we want and not have a government say that it is discouraged. That can be an Enlightenment view, a Fascist view, or whatever else.

Hell, having free speech as an end unto itself is better than having it as an end to 'fighting oppression' (because that argument will really get many governments to back it).

	15-06-2005 05:22									#115
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quote: And there is nothing wrong having free speech for the sake of free speech itself.

That creates all sorts of philosophical problems. One is that you won't be able to construct a system where you can account for restrictions on speech.

This is a general problem of all rights based accounts, and is what makes them rather silly.

	15-06-2005 05:24									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, that's the END goal. And there is nothing wrong having free speech for the sake of free speech itself. We have freedom to live for the sake of life itself.

Life is much more important than speaking, but I wouldn't even say that is absolute.

	15-06-2005 05:30									#117
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No one said the right to life was absolute. But we do have the freedom to live for the sake of life itself, do we not? Even then we can have the death penalty and all of that stuff. It is just in general, we uphold life.

quote: That creates all sorts of philosophical problems. One is that you won't be able to construct a system where you can account for restrictions on speech.

True, if you look it absolutely, but I prefer to look at such a statement and say in general, we'd prefer it. The problem, of course, is that in the end, you have to have one principle that beats everything else (who decides what wins in the end).

It's why rights are decided by society, but we have our general preferences.

	15-06-2005 05:32									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No one said the right to life was absolute. But we do have the freedom to live for the sake of life itself, do we not? Even then we can have the death penalty and all of that stuff. It is just in general, we uphold life.

I think it's about happiness and equality, not just living.

	15-06-2005 05:33									#119
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So if you didn't have happiness and equality (and let's say you aren't in constant excruitiating pain), you'd rather die?



edit: The reason we uphold life is because of our basic biological desire to continue to survive.

	15-06-2005 05:37									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So if you didn't have happiness and equality (and let's say you aren't in constant excruitiating pain), you'd rather die?

I wouldn't care if I died. If I was unhappy then I would want to die. Happiness and equality are the end goals. Individual rights are simply intermediate goals that need to be comprimised to meet the end goals.