15-06-2005 01:06									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If the laws of the country you do business in forbid hiring homosexuals, you do not hire homosexuals.

If the laws of the country you do business in mandate killing Jews, then you kill Jews. Do you seriously believe that? And do you seriously believe that someone who is not coerced into doing business in that country is exempt from blame in such cases.

quote: Contrary to popular belief, Microsoft doesn't hold a lot of sway in the Chinese government. They gain nothing and lose a lot by refusing to sell products there.

What an astonishing ability to miss the point. No-one says that they have sway with the Chinese government, but they have a lot of sway over where they decide to do business. They are not forced to do business in China.

It's quite simple: in choices like this you can take the money or respect human rights. Microsoft is taking the money, that makes them (and others) culpable for their part in suppressing political freedoms.

Generally speaking, if party A is free to choose whether or not to contract with B, and B's contract states that A must do something unethical to fulfil the contract, then A is morally responsible for colluding with the unethical law if A takes on the contract. A is not responsible for enforcing the law, but for colluding with it.

Similarly, Microsoft, Google, et al. are free to choose whether or not to conduct business in China. No-one is forcing them to collude in suppression of political freedoms, they are quite happy to do it, since they would rather have the money.

	15-06-2005 01:11									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, you're blaming them for abiding by local law. For some reason, you get all up in arms of US companies violate law (like, say, Enron), but you seem to think it's in company's best interests to not abide by the laws sometimes?

That's irrelevant. No one is forcing Microsoft to do business in China. They could withdraw at any time. You are misrepresenting the choice. Their choice is not whether to obey the law, but whether to do business in a country that has such laws. Don't confuse the two.

quote: Microsoft's policy is to abide by local law in every country they operate in. Period.

As I've pointed out to you. If the law was "kill Jews" then your logic entails that there would be nothing wrong with Microsoft setting up shop and killing Jews. Sorry... that's ****ed.

It's relevantly similar here. The law is "suppress human rights" and Microsoft is colluding by doing business there when they don't have to.

quote: That's what they're doing, and that's not wrong. If you've got a beef with the laws, deal with the communists who made them, and not the people abiding by them.

Your position is absurd. It would licence any business to invest anywhere and make money no matter what the severity of human rights violations it engaged in.

Again, the makers of bad laws are at fault, but so are those who collude with them for profit when they don't have to.

	15-06-2005 01:13									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If the laws of the country you do business in mandate killing Jews, then you kill Jews. Do you seriously believe that? And do you seriously believe that someone who is not coerced into doing business in that country is exempt from blame in such cases.

That would be a stunning example if it was Microsoft's business to kill jews.

Microsoft makes a software product. China censors such products. Such is life.

quote: It's quite simple: in choices like this you can take the money or respect human rights. Microsoft is taking the money, that makes them (and others) culpable for their part in suppressing political freedoms.

Get your head out of idealism and academia and back into the real world.

If Microsoft censors their MSN Spaces, do you think anything will change w.r.t. human rights in China?
If Microsoft withdraws MSN Spaces from China, do you think anything will change w.r.t. human rights in China?

This is why you can't have a philosopher making business decisions -- completely out to lunch, and not interested in providing ROI to shareholders.

	15-06-2005 01:15									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Um who did that? I don't blame them for China's polices (that would be absurd), just for colluding with them to make money. That's a big difference.

And then you went on a rant of US media, of all things.

Furthermore... oooh, they are making money by adhereing to China's laws in China. Big ****ing deal.

	15-06-2005 01:15									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's irrelevant. No one is forcing Microsoft to do business in China. They could withdraw at any time. You are misrepresenting the choice. Their choice is not whether to obey the law, but whether to do business in a country that has such laws. Don't confuse the two.

Actually, Microsoft doesn't really have a choice.

China will eventually become a larger market than North America/Europe, and shareholders of the company expect growth in all markets -- especially China.

It gets even more complicated with the threat of Linux in China (specifically, the "People's" Red Flag Linux).

If Microsoft withdraws from China, Linux would become the de-facto operating system in one of the most important, and soon to be the most important market.

Shareholders become upset, share prices falls, people lose their jobs...

Again, the problem isn't with Microsoft doing business in China (they would be completely stupid to withdraw from China over this). The problem is with the communists in China setting the laws.

I'm all for companies following local laws. I only wish communists weren't such inhumane, freedom-oppressing people.

	15-06-2005 01:17									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And then you went on a rant of US media, of all things.

That was a sidetrack.

quote: Furthermore... oooh, they are making money by adhereing to China's laws in China. Big ****ing deal.

Well, great. Companies made money by adhering to Nazi laws... how ethical...

	15-06-2005 01:19									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Well, great. Companies made money by adhering to Nazi laws... how ethical...

IBM financed the development of the mainframe -- which kickstarted the digital computing age -- with profits from selling Hollerith counting machines to the Nazis.

	15-06-2005 01:22									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Actually, Microsoft doesn't really have a choice.

Of course it does. It would cost them money, but they have a choice. So do all other companies who collude in suppression of human rights worldwide.

quote: China will eventually become a larger market than North America/Europe, and shareholders of the company expect growth in all markets -- especially China.

So shareholders are now entitled to make money from human rights abuses. You can say what you like, but that's unethical.

quote: It gets even more complicated with the threat of Linux in China (specifically, the "People's" Red Flag Linux). If Microsoft withdraws from China, Linux would become the de-facto operating system in one of the most important, and soon to be the most important market.

So, now it is a case of "we would rather abuse human rights so that a competitor doesn't beat us out of a deal".

Well, that's the reasoning of a decent and virtuous person if ever I heard one.

quote: Shareholders become upset, share prices falls, people lose their jobs...

You're just repeating what is in question. Do shareholders have the right to expect to profit from human rights abuses?

Any decent human being would say no. Of course, in the business papers there aren't many decent human beings.

quote: Again, the problem isn't with Microsoft doing business in China (they would be completely stupid to withdraw from China over this). The problem is with the communists in China setting the laws.

You are repeating yourself again. I accept that the Chinese government is responsible. But that does not exonerate the corporations who collude with them. I've made this point several times and you haven't come close to responding to it.

quote: I'm all for companies following local laws. I only wish communists weren't such inhumane, freedom-oppressing people.

So you're all for making money out of human rights abuses. That doesn't surprise me.

	15-06-2005 01:23									#69
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It seems Microsoft is shaking hands with the devil (that'd be the Chinese Communist Party) in order to make money.

	15-06-2005 01:23									#70
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You're right Aggy. He just goes on and on repeating the same old suck ass argument.

	15-06-2005 01:24									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Asher IBM financed the development of the mainframe -- which kickstarted the digital computing age -- with profits from selling Hollerith counting machines to the Nazis.

So. Hitler started the second world war (a bad thing), which resulted in the formation of the United Nations (largely a good thing).

I guess Adolf's off the hook now.

	15-06-2005 01:25									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It seems Microsoft is shaking hands with the devil (that'd be the Chinese Communist Party) in order to make money.

Yeah, not hard was it.

Please don't count me as a die hard supporter of the CCP. I think that censoring blogs is silly, perhaps unworkable anyway, but despicable anyway.

	15-06-2005 01:25									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're right Aggy. He just goes on and on repeating the same old suck ass argument.

It's like one of those monkeys with a barrel organ, eh?

	15-06-2005 01:28									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It seems Microsoft is shaking hands with the devil (that'd be the Chinese Communist Party) in order to make money.

And? You do realize that the US has a TON of trade with China. If you stopped ALL of it tomorrow, the US would hit a depression, most likely.

	15-06-2005 01:30									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course it does. It would cost them money, but they have a choice. So do all other companies who collude in suppression of human rights worldwide.

They don't have the choice if they want to remain a company.

You clearly don't have the business perspective on this. You live in a fantasy world...

quote: So shareholders are now entitled to make money from human rights abuses. You can say what you like, but that's unethical.

I see it as unethical to force people who buy your music player to only buy from your music store, too.

I also find communism unethical, so...

quote: So, now it is a case of "we would rather abuse human rights so that a competitor doesn't beat us out of a deal". Well, that's the reasoning of a decent and virtuous person if ever I heard one.

Well, you're forgetting that the competitor would be doing the exact same "abuse of human rights". In the end, nothing changes...except Microsoft gets hugely disadvantaged.

quote: You're just repeating what is in question. Do shareholders have the right to expect to profit from human rights abuses?

Shareholders have the right to expect the company to remain competitive. Shareholders with half a brain would realize the same kind of censorship would exist with or without Microsoft competing in the market, as well.

quote: You are repeating yourself again. I accept that the Chinese government is responsible. But that does not exonerate the corporations who collude with them. I've made this point several times and you haven't come close to responding to it.

My point is they'll happen with or without Microsoft's products in the market.

The problem isn't censorship of Microsoft's products, it's the censorship of all products.

If Microsoft withdraws their product the ONLY result is a significant disadvantage for Microsoft with no change at all to the human rights situation in China.

You want Microsoft to withdraw from China because you don't like the company, and this whole RIDICULOUS argument you're presenting is as facetious as your Apple fanboyism is.

	15-06-2005 01:32									#76
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We'd certainly have a shortage of happy meal toys and cheap textiles. On the upside Africa, Latin America, eastern Europe, south Asia, and the middle east could easily supply our needs for slightly more without feeding the world's worst human rights offender. There would be an adjustment period but that's the price we'd have to pay to actually act out our moral beliefs.

	15-06-2005 01:32									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It seems Microsoft is shaking hands with the devil (that'd be the Chinese Communist Party) in order to make money.

All businesses in China are subject to it.

Microsoft's choice is to withdraw from that extremely important, growing market, or compete in it.

If Microsoft stays in the market, the Chinese government still censors.

If Microsoft leaves the market, the Chinese government still censors.

So I fail to see what the big outcry is for Microsoft staying to compete in the market under the Chinese government restrictions, seeing as it has no impact on the censorship.

	15-06-2005 01:35									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We'd certainly have a shortage of happy meal toys and cheap textiles. On the upside Africa, Latin America, eastern Europe, south Asia, and the middle east could easily supply our needs for slightly more without feeding the world's worst human rights offender. There would be an adjustment period but that's the price we'd have to pay to actually act out our moral beliefs.

It's amazing that you think THAT is why we have such a trade deficit with China. Hell, without them buying up our dollars, I'd hate to see where the US economy would be.

And you are saying our companies should act out our 'moral beliefs' by getting more goods from Africa and the Middle East? WTF?

	15-06-2005 01:40									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's amazing that you think THAT is why we have such a trade deficit with China. Hell, without them buying up our dollars, I'd hate to see where the US economy would be.

The don't buy our dollars. They sell their **** here and recieve dollars in return. So if they didn't do that our own manufacturing companies would do much better, and we would have less unemployment and higher wages.

	15-06-2005 01:44									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The don't buy our dollars. They sell their **** here and recieve dollars in return. So if they didn't do that our own manufacturing companies would do much better, and we would have less unemployment and higher wages.

Actually China and Japan were involved in buying up dollars to keep the dollar from falling too fast. The Chinese, especially, because, IIRC, their currency is pegged to the dollar.

And yeah, if we didn't trade with China, all the manufacturing companies would come back. Yeaaaaaahh... smoke some more of that, Kid .

	15-06-2005 01:45									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And? You do realize that the US has a TON of trade with China. If you stopped ALL of it tomorrow, the US would hit a depression, most likely.

Who's suggesting that? There's nothing wrong with buying products from China. One could quibble about poor working conditions (that might be a reason not to trade with China), but that is entirely different from colluding within China to help suppress human rights.

If Microsoft used Chinese factories to make its XBoxes, that is giving those people a job. It's no more helping the CCP than it is hindering it. As I said, we might quibble about fair trade practices and all that, but there is nothing in principle unethical about trading with China. In fact increased trade is probably more likely to bring about the changes that most of us would eventually like to see.

But that is massively different from colluding with the CCP in China to suppress human rights. That is unethical in principle. People that do that to make money are bastards.

	15-06-2005 01:49									#82
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quote: But that is massively different from colluding with the CCP in China to suppress human rights. That is unethical in principle. People that do that to make money are bastards.

Again -- with or without Microsoft's competition in the market, China will censor.

For once in your life, think practically.

	15-06-2005 01:55									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Who's suggesting that? There's nothing wrong with buying products from China. One could quibble about poor working conditions (that might be a reason not to trade with China), but that is entirely different from colluding within China to help suppress human rights. If Microsoft used Chinese factories to make its XBoxes, that is giving those people a job. It's no more helping the CCP than it is hindering it. As I said, we might quibble about fair trade practices and all that, but there is nothing in principle unethical about trading with China. In fact increased trade is probably more likely to bring about the changes that most of us would eventually like to see. But that is massively different from colluding with the CCP in China to suppress human rights. That is unethical in principle. People that do that to make money are bastards.

Uh huh... and long do you think Microsoft gets to make XBox's in China or sell Windows to Chinese people when it allows Chinese citizens to blatently circumvent Chinese law.

Hell, that must mean I should boycott Yahoo because they were colluding with France to suppress the human right of free speech! They have banned French people from buying Nazi memorabilia, which is their human right under freedom of speech! Damn them!!

	15-06-2005 02:00									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They don't have the choice if they want to remain a company.

Yes they do. You are speaking of one of the world's most wealthy businesses. They could easily avoid to get along without China. Sure, they'd lose money and be in a vulnerable position.

quote: You clearly don't have the business perspective on this. You live in a fantasy world...

This is usually newspeak for "yes, we're making money from colluding in human rights abuses, so just shut up."

The "business perspective" seems to be "human rights abuses are OK as long as we make money". If that's the business perspective, then God help us.

quote: I see it as unethical to force people who buy your music player to only buy from your music store, too.

Thank you for making my point for me. You are free to buy or not buy an iPod, just as you are free to do or not do business in China. If you want to buy an iPod, you accept that you can only buy music from Apple. If you don't wish to do that, buy one of iRiver's players. I hear they're pretty good. Similarly, if you want to offer blogging in China, you will have to collude in violating human rights. But you don't have to offer blogging in China, and even if your business might lose money, it is not any sort of excuse for violating human rights.

Major league self-pwnage there Asher.

quote: You're forgetting that the competitor would be doing the exact same "abuse of human rights". In the end, nothing changes...except Microsoft gets hugely disadvantaged.

I'm not forgetting that at all. If my friends rip off a store, I will lose out on my share and be disadvantaged if I don't go along with them. But that's no excuse for ripping off the store.

Didn't your mother tell you that other people doing something does not mean that it's right for you to do it.

quote: Shareholders have the right to expect the company to remain competitive. Shareholders with half a brain would realize the same kind of censorship would exist with or without Microsoft competing in the market, as well.

Shareholders in companies operating in Nazi Germany would have realized that the same kinds of abuses would have happened without their company helping. That still doesn't make it right for them to profit from the death of Jews.

quote: My point is they'll happen with or without Microsoft's products in the market.

That's no excuse - see above.

quote: The problem isn't censorship of Microsoft's products, it's the censorship of all products.

I agree. But there is no reason for Western companies to benefit China (and you seem to have forgotten that they benefit China as much as China benefits them) from human rights abuses. China would lose out if they left. You're forgetting that trade occurs when each side has something the other wants.

You face the same problem again: you are trying to justify profiting from direct human rights abuses.

quote: If Microsoft withdraws their product the ONLY result is a significant disadvantage for Microsoft with no change at all to the human rights situation in China.

No. The other result is that they are no longer profiting from human rights abuses. If other companies did the same, that would be better too.

quote: You want Microsoft to withdraw from China because you don't like the company, and this whole RIDICULOUS argument you're presenting is as facetious as your Apple fanboyism is.

Waaaa Waaaa

No. The central problem here is that you are trying to defend profiting from human rights abuses. Trying to pretend that this is in any way ethical is absurd. The result is that you're getting blitzed in the argument (which isn't hard given what you are trying to defend) and have resorted to puerile accusations of Apple fanboyism.

I like Google as well as Apple, but their conduct is no better (as I have said during the thread).

	15-06-2005 02:01									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Uh huh... and long do you think Microsoft gets to make XBox's in China or sell Windows to Chinese people when it allows Chinese citizens to blatently circumvent Chinese law.

Is there some law of physics that makes it impossible for Microsoft to make XBoxes in China without offering a blogging service?

What's your point?

	15-06-2005 02:05									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Is there some law of physics that makes it impossible for Microsoft to make XBoxes in China without offering a blogging service? What's your point?

They are following Chinese law. China being a country that every other country in the world trades with. No big deal here at all. Hell, nothing really to crow about at all. It's silly to make an issue of this in the slightest.

	15-06-2005 02:05									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Thank you for making my point for me. You are free to buy or not buy an iPod, just as you are free to do or not do business in China.

Or maybe the point is the Chinese are free not to buy Microsoft products?

quote: Major league self-pwnage there Asher.

Not at all. My point was I think a lot of things are unethical, yet they remain a valid business.

The entire closed nature of Apple's business is unethical. Don't they even sue sites (censor, if you will) for talking about things Apple wants to be hush-hush?

Now that I think about it, that sounds pretty familiar to the point of this thread.

Please go start a thread about how Apple hates Freedom and Democracy -- it's certainly far more apt than criticism of Microsoft for following laws.

quote: That's no excuse - see above.

It absolutely is.

If your actions have no effect, what's the point in putting yourself at a major competitive disadvantage?

	15-06-2005 02:07									#88
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quote: They are following Chinese law. China being a country that every other country in the world trades with. No big deal here at all. Hell, nothing really to crow about at all. It's silly to make an issue of this in the slightest.

Only if you think it is always ethical to trade with people no matter what their laws are. That seems to me a patently absurd position that invites obvious counterexamples (like the Jew killing one).

Again, please stop treating this like it is about trade. It's not. Most trade with China is fine. This is about colluding with human rights abuses.

	15-06-2005 02:08									#89
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quote: Is there some law of physics that makes it impossible for Microsoft to make XBoxes in China without offering a blogging service?

Yeah, F = ma. Specifically applied to guns. His point was that China wouldn't let MS make Xbox's in China if it violated Chinese law in some other area...

	15-06-2005 02:09									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: They are following Chinese law. China being a country that every other country in the world trades with. No big deal here at all. Hell, nothing really to crow about at all. It's silly to make an issue of this in the slightest. Only if you think it is always ethical to trade with people no matter what their laws are. That seems to me a patently absurd position that invites obvious counterexamples (like the Jew killing one). Again, please stop treating this like it is about trade. It's not. Most trade with China is fine. This is about colluding with human rights abuses.

When every other country in the world trades with them? When they are under no sanctions by the UN? Yes, it's ethical to trade with people even if you think their laws suck.

You avoided the question of Yahoo and the French. Frankly I think the anti-Nazi laws of the French and Germans are abhorrant to anyone who believes in freedom of speech. I'm not boycotting Yahoo for it. They are doing business and following the French law. France isn't under sanction, so nothing wrong with that.

And yes, this IS a trade issue. Sorry if you want to make Microsoft look all bad, but your mischaracterizations are absurd.