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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
In late 2002 England were playing an expansive game. They rolled both Australia and NZ doing so - how could you possibly forget that Finbar?  |
I was merely demonstrating that being an hour ahead of you allows me to get in first while you're still parking your car and dreaming of caffeine. 
Now listen. I'm reading a wonderful book - "Guns, Germs and Steel - A Short History Of Everybody For The Last 13,000 Years". Basically, it's an exploration of the reasons why societies developed so differently and at such different rates around the world. Included is an exploration of the means by which various parts of the world were settled. New Zealand, as we know, was settled by the Polynesians from the north in around 1000AD. Prior to that, the Polynesians settled Samoa in around 1200BC. But where did the Polynesians come from?
The Polynesians developed out of the Austronesian expansion across the Pacific. Via Taiwan. From South China. Starting around 3500BC. So, if we're going to be strictly historically accurate, North Auckland - as the source of so much All Blacks talent - should, in fact, be known as Far South East China.
Thus, if the Rugby World Cup is ever staged as an origin-based competition, put your money on the Chinese team.
Oh, and if I discover, later in the book, that a wayward Austronesian stumbled his way to the East Midlands, that means you're an All Blacks supporter.
All of which only proves that a little knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands. 
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:21
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I agree with you entirely Ravagon – I expect an improvement but I think a test win is beyond them now. I would love to be proved wrong – and if I am will join Andydog in having tears in my eyes.
Clive can be a **** as we all know – but he isn’t all the time. In fact most of the time he is quite rational.
The Auckland game was actually a great game – the effort either side was immense. On balance the better side just about sneaked it. Big Joe was well marshalled all game. Had Auckland played a fly half who could hold the ball or kick it from hand they would have done better – the poor lad had a howler. The Auckland coach, Pat Lam, played up here for a long time with Saints then Newcastle and is fondly remembered by anyone who saw him play.
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The tiresome place has to be good for something! |
I still maintain I enjoyed my three weeks there – the only exception being any talk of any sport with Aussies males.
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You can post outrageous rebuttals and scurry off home while I'm already planning dinner! |
I felt it introduced an element of justice for yesterday morning.
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Mrs finbar and I are now completely and totally wireless! |
The ultra modern sitting alongside the traditional tranquillity of an Italian village. I must take up writing.
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Is it? I didn't know that. |
Apparently so. The proof of the pudding is in what the citing official said about the brahmer of a punch that closed Kay’s eye as it boiled down to “no further action because it was retaliation”. But more on this later…
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As ugly as he is, he doesn't need to belt anyone. Looking at them would damage them enough. |
There is a photo in the ABC bar at Welford Road of a fresh faced young thing with normal ears. You would not recognise it as the same man.
So the foul play? Rowntree was cleared by the panel and rightly so as it just appeared to be a bit of minor wrestling with the oppo lock. It is impossible to see on the TV footage the punch that Ben Kay apparently threw ‘first’. All his right arm appears to be doing from the broadcast footage is trying to grab the ball that Tuitupou is running away with (note the Lions have just been awarded a penalty). At this ‘extreme provocation’ Tuitupou punches Kay full on in the face. In front of the ref and clearly on camera. So one would have to say on balance Finbar that Walsh, who reversed the penalty as a bizarre reward for this punch, had one of his usual poor games. So poor in fact that as Kay was being treated for a closed eye he tried to drag him 15 metres to hear his pompous reversal decision – the Lions trainer told him to **** *** as politely as possible.
Tuitupou got a six week ban for the stamping. He had no defence really – his head was down as he did it so he knew exactly what he was doing. Interestingly it seems that the guy will miss no rugby at all because of it. Sound familiar?
Cueto had a strong game Finbar. The big criticism of him is he doesn’t work hard enough off the ball. But he is strong, fast and improving all the time. Robinson and Williams were dire but I have a sinking feeling the former will be named tomorrow.
Wilkinson and Henson are both out with ‘stingers’. I am sure the former is true but the latter is clearly a face saving excuse as he was utter crap last week and had to be dropped. I think poor Jonny needs to think of leaving the game – this cycle of injury will cripple him very young if he is not careful.
My preferred team?
Jenkins, Thompson, Sheridan, O’Connell, Shaw, Moody, Cozza, Easterby, Cusiter/Dawson (Dawson had a great game against Auckland), Hodgson (if fit), Murphy, D’Arcy, Smith, Cueto and Lewsey.
Bench: Wiggy/Whitey, R. Jones/Backy, S Jones, Dawse/Cus, Bulloch, O’Callaghan and probably Horgan.
And I would never have picked this line up before the tour. No chance of it being even close to this of course. Please let him play Smith though – the boy represents the way forward for England and facing Umaga will be simply great for him. You learn by playing the best after all (I’d also like to see him face big Stirling in November).
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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
It was not indicative of having been coached by Clive either - both were uber-arrogant people well before Clive coached England.
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Well I don't buy that, and to be frank you're struggling with your rebuttal. It may be easier for you to blame Henry rather than accept the real reasons for losing that tour, but from what I've seen so far, Henry is quality. And the 01 tour was close - if that wallaby hadn't stolen that lineout throw in the final minutes of the third test..
Henry has led the All Blacks to a series win over the Lions and they have played some of the most exhilarating rugby seen for many years. He is combining brute strength up front with a dazzling backline - a blend that has allowed us to storm through the first two tests playing high-skilled rugby at extreme pace.
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Henry said:
This is what we do in the Super 12, this is how we play the game. It's an athletic game and this is the ideal breeding ground to play this type of rugby |
I've heard you and others on this forum poo-pooing the Super12. The fact is its great for developing athleticism and skill, and it is a style that Henry and Steve Hansen laid the foundations for when they were each in charge of Wales.
Speaking of Wales, Henry set the Welsh recovery in motion when he took over from Kevin Bowring in 1998, right after he lead Auckland to four successive national titles and the Blues to victory in the first two Super 12 tournaments.
Wales, who had been thumped 96-13 by South Africa in June 1998, halted England's grand slam bid in 1999, then beat the Springboks 29-19 in Cardiff, and then went on to win 10 straight games. The Welsh fans worshiped Henry.
He has recognised the AB's past deficiencies as being 'over drilled' - which discourages creativity and such things as 'plan Bs' when things go wrong (as per last few world cups). He is now encouraging creativity and vision back into his players using a variety of techniques and he is instilling great professionalism into our game.
So there are the facts – you can now see why I disagree with you when you say he is "a total dickhead"
Last edited by Andydog on 06-07-2005 at 13:50
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child of Thor
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quote:
Originally posted by Andydog
edit....
Speaking of Wales, Henry set the Welsh recovery in motion when he took over from Kevin Bowring in 1998, right after he lead Auckland to four successive national titles and the Blues to victory in the first two Super 12 tournaments.
Wales, who had been thumped 96-13 by South Africa in June 1998, halted England's grand slam bid in 1999, then beat the Springboks 29-19 in Cardiff, and then went on to win 10 straight games. The Welsh fans worshiped Henry.
edit......... |
indeed - i think we are seeing many more capable young players coming through the system in wales too, probably a legacy of the general all round professionalism having the NZ coaches in wales helped bring to the welsh game. Still these things take time, and i'm hoping the current form and crop of players coming out of wales carries on and improves.
Despite what Havak might say about wales - i think even a hardend pro-anglo would agree that having a stronger welsh side in the home compition is good for rugby, well i certainly feel it, and hope the english raise their game for the next six-nation encounter between us
Still on the recent performances NZ are now my no1 in the run up to the next world cup. If they can keep that killer instinct in all their games that is.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:21
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Hold on there Child of Thor – I am happy enough to see a strong Welsh side in the tournament! I’m never going to be pleased at them beating England though am I?
England were immensely poor in Cardiff this year – and lost by one point when the orange one did a Jonny to us. Even with a coach I do not rate at all it is unlikely they will be so poor at Twickenham come 2006 so it should be game on next year.
Crikey the butchers bill is immense – Smith is one who is sadly ruled out injured for Saturday.
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Well I don't buy that, and to be frank you're struggling with your rebuttal. |
Tish and pish – come back to me after reading any of the 2001 players accounts of working with the guy. All you are doing here is recycling your own opinion that the guy is quality – and it is based on nothing except your watching three test wins that I can see? He’s a **** IMO, he has no man management skills. He will prove it. Smith and Hansen have man management skills and were not on the Lions 2001 tour. See any causal linkage there with the difference between Henry eras?
It’s your honeymoon right now after he came back from the UK realising he needed to improve NZ forward play. Other sides will catch up and he will fail to adapt I suspect.
Hell I still think Australia will probably win the tri-nations because Eddie is a real cunning little coach whom I do not ‘like’ but greatly ‘admire’.
Gatland is probably the man for the future for NZ – far superior as a coach to Henry IMO and battled forged at Wasps (and as much as I hate them they are a good club side to cut your teeth on).
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I've heard you and others on this forum poo-pooing the Super12. The fact is its great for developing athleticism and skill, and it is a style that Henry and Steve Hansen laid the foundations for when they were each in charge of Wales. |
Super 12 has faults, as does the English Premiership and Celtic league (though less of them IMO). Ignoring the fact isn’t helpful. And Wales do not play Super 12 rugby. Their improvement relies as much on superbly improved conditioning of their forwards (their fitness coach is Australian btw and was appointed by Hansen) and improvement in the set piece grind as it does on the running style. Three years ago the Welsh pack was dead on it’s feet after sixty minutes – but no longer. I would hazard that I have seen more Welsh national and club rugby in the last year than you have in a lifetime and it is nothing like the laissez faire S12 games I have also seen this year.
Wales have a solid pack – always have had. The really expansive game they are playing is less than 24 months old. Henry had nothing to do with it at all – Hansen introduced it. Based on your criteria above (Henry is great for winning three tests against France and the Lions) Mike Ruddock is clearly a better coach than either man. You are aware that both Henry and Hansen have appalling win-loss ratios with Wales? Ruddock is the man who came in and turned that around I am afraid.
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The Welsh fans worshiped Henry. |
Nonsense. He had a wonderful honeymoon period. He was hugely unpopular by the end. HUGELY unpopular. I heard calls for his head (literally) after the loss to Ireland in 2002. Hell I toured with the Lions in 2001 and the honeymoon was over by then – I KNOW what Scarlets and Blues and Ospreys fans said to me about the guy and it wasn’t hero worship!
I actually take huge issue with the idea Welsh fans ‘worshipped’ Henry. They (like you?) got a little carried away with him early on – but they were very glad when he got sacked in February 2002 I can assure you!
LMAO at Henry stopping England’s grand slam bid. A crap performance against a poor team cost them that – and it only then boiled down to Dayglo’s stupid decision on a penalty, a Tim Rodber missed tackle on Gibbs and Andre Watson having the helm.
Those ten wins? Well they didn’t actually start with that Bok game!!!!
Scotland (!) and Ireland both beat Wales before they sneaked a win against France in 99 – the sequence then was Italy, England (see above), Argentina (x2), South Africa, Canada, France (at home this time), Argentina again and then Japan (at home!). In October 99 Samoa ended their run in Cardiff then Australia whupped them at home too
France hammered Wales 36-3 in the opening game in Feb 2000. England hammered Wales 46-12 in March 2000 (Wales never beating them again, or even coming close, until 2005). In the rest of the Henry era there was another narrow win against France and one against Ireland. He never beat an SH big three opponent again. And had two record losses to Ireland, one to Argentina, a draw (!) with Scotland. He was sacked after Wales demolition by Ireland in February 2002 IIRC. After he went Hansen endured a torrid time of awful results.
So these foundations you talk about Mr Henry laying – I accuse you of being totally and utterly wrong on it. With Hansen you might have a point (he had no choice but to rebuild and rethink) – but Henry there is no way as the facts disagree with you!
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So there are the facts – you can now see why I disagree with you when you say he is "a total dickhead" |
You are on a high – and so you should be.
I didn’t see many facts to be honest – plenty of opinion and a smattering of hero worship but not too many facts.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Had Auckland played a fly half who could hold the ball or kick it from hand they would have done better – the poor lad had a howler. |
I didn't see the Auckland line up, but I assume that's the guy the Blues brought in to replace Carlos during the S12 season (prior to his injury). I saw his first S12 game and some of his subsequent efforts. Pretty ordinary, particularly his passing - sloppy and looping - and his kicking from the hand.
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I still maintain I enjoyed my three weeks there – the only exception being any talk of any sport with Aussies males. |
Yes, well, we met an English couple the other night who have bought a five acre olive farm not far from us. They asked why we were here for two years - which, incidentally, might stretch to more - and I told them why I was here. He was puzzled. He said his firm has a Sydney branch and the Poms who go out there to work love the place. Why?, I asked. Because of the weather and easy-going attitude to life, he said. By this point, Mrs finbar, sensing I was about to unload on the sh*thole of a place, was stamping on my foot to shut me up. So I didn't get to tell him what lurks beneath the surface. And not far beneath. And has always been there, but has been prodded and stirred and exploited by the incumbent Prime Minister for his own cynical purposes.
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The ultra modern sitting alongside the traditional tranquillity of an Italian village. |
Precisely what we said yesterday after I had the system up and running. If only the Etruscans - who first settled this town - had had this technology, the Romans mightn't have swallowed them.
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Cueto had a strong game Finbar. The big criticism of him is he doesn’t work hard enough off the ball. |
I thought he was doing more of that as the 6 Nations went on. He seemed to be one of the few real triers with a plan.
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Wilkinson and Henson are both out with ‘stingers’. I am sure the former is true but the latter is clearly a face saving excuse as he was utter crap last week and had to be dropped. |
Then there was the mysterious "injury" that kept him out of the midweek match prior to the last Test. The rumors persist that he had cracked the sh*ts about missing the second Test and was walking out. Clive felt the need to deny the rumor anyway.
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My preferred team? |
As you say, no chance of it being selected.  I'm not sure what Murphy has done wrong on this tour. He seems to have suffered for Clive's determination to pick Robinson regardless.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:21
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quote:
Wales deserved to win the Slam as they were the best side in the tournament. I am sorry but the realist in me does have to point out I think it was the worst tournament and certainly the worst England side in a decade. This has to be used to put the quality of this Welsh side in perspective. It's promising, it's pretty good perhaps - but it's not world beating yet. |
Indeed Wales was the best team and shows lots of promise as it's a team of many young players. But the touring performance of both the Brits and the French show that we are not up to the South Hemisphere level right now. Sure, the Lions managed to get too many players and to hurt some of them, but even if that's poor management, the gap with the ABs is too big not to reveal something. As for the French, they showed some promise but are rebuilding after the last World Cup.
We can only hope next year tournament will show better teams. England shouldn't have much problem improving, Italy actually have a good coach (Berbizier puts a stress on discipline and they need that), but Scotland currently looks beyond hope, as except for Cusiter they don't have the shadow of a class player among them.
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05-07-2005 11:51
We scored! :Joy: 14-13 at the 70min mark! 
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