12-07-2005 12:55									#121
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Perhaps a silly (if partially accurate) quote from Clive - but surely we will know more about the gulf when NZ tour here after the domestic NPC has finished at a time when some of our players will still be relatively fresh for the season?

The lads on the Lions tour were not bad players and it would be stupid for anyone to think so -- but as Mr O'Connell said "none of us brought our A game with us". That seems a fatal flaw when playing a team as cohesive as the ABs were - and is a more realistic view than Clive the Ostriche holds.

All AB fans should be enjoying a great series win - but is hasn't secured the Webb Ellis as that will be constested in France in the fall of 2007 and the ABs will have to maintain close to this standard of play to win it I suspect.

The Lions incidentally normally lose one or two provincial games in NZ - and didn't this time. My own thought on that is that the dirt trackers were led by a better coach.

	12-07-2005 13:02									#122
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Clive should shut up and quit while he's behind. He digs himself deeper into the hole the more he says. Presumably he is going to the s***** team? Clive's and the s***** team's statements seem a bit more vague than they were.

I think the midweek coach probably was better at his job than Clive. OTOH, he wasn't facing anything like the same opposition and his players were, after all, picked for a Lions tour.

	12-07-2005 13:27									#123
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The problem with rampant egomania is it doesn't allow for the possibility of shutting up at any point.

He will go to the s***** side - it's all politics at the moment as he is being brought in alongside a proven s***** coach and that is proving tricky.

I recommend you saunter over to the BBC sport site - various taffs and that 'Aussie in taffs clothing' have launched a few wild claims about their NZ fixture in November.

	13-07-2005 13:01									#124
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Jeff Probyn, Legendary England prop and a man who worked briefly under Clive inn 1997 and has long been on record as disliking him:

"It was all about winning the Tests. If we'd won, Clive would be telling everybody what a great coach he is. He took the credit for England's World Cup success while ignoring all the disappointing performances he presided over in the years before that - the 1999 World Cup failure, all the Grand Slam misses. He then releases a book called 'Winning' when the reality is that as a coach he has spent more time losing. There's no getting away from the fact he played a part in winning the World Cup but this Lions series has brought public perception of Clive's ability closer to the reality understood by those who know him. The public's perception of what he contributed to the 2003 World Cup success has been very different to the reality."

And on Campbell:

"The fact Campbell gave a team talk to the players is ludicrous and insulting beyond belief. What the hell does he know about playing rugby at any level, let alone at Test level?"

And finally a word of warning:

"Harry Redknapp will have to be a very good football manager if he is going to deal with Clive week in, week out."

I think you have a soul mate Finbar?!

I'm just sorry Clive has left the sport - every test he helmed after Martin retired just kept on adding to the latters legend (I'll keep saying it because it is patently true!).

	13-07-2005 13:57									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Jeff Probyn, Legendary England prop and a man who worked briefly under Clive inn 1997 and has long been on record as disliking him: "It was all about winning the Tests. If we'd won, Clive would be telling everybody what a great coach he is. He took the credit for England's World Cup success while ignoring all the disappointing performances he presided over in the years before that - the 1999 World Cup failure, all the Grand Slam misses. He then releases a book called 'Winning' when the reality is that as a coach he has spent more time losing. There's no getting away from the fact he played a part in winning the World Cup but this Lions series has brought public perception of Clive's ability closer to the reality understood by those who know him. The public's perception of what he contributed to the 2003 World Cup success has been very different to the reality." And on Campbell: "The fact Campbell gave a team talk to the players is ludicrous and insulting beyond belief. What the hell does he know about playing rugby at any level, let alone at Test level?" And finally a word of warning: "Harry Redknapp will have to be a very good football manager if he is going to deal with Clive week in, week out." I think you have a soul mate Finbar?!

Yes, I read all that yesterday. And regardless of any history between Probyn and Clive, there's much truth in what he says.

quote: I'm just sorry Clive has left the sport - every test he helmed after Martin retired just kept on adding to the latters legend (I'll keep saying it because it is patently true!).

I've said it before and I'll say it again - J**** made Clive's reputation. Clive's record since J****'s retirement isn't coincidence.

I read an interesting observation somewhere recently. One of the hallmarks of Clive's coaching was a largely disfunctional backline. Odd days out aside, probably in some of the 6 Nations matches, I think it's right. Even when England beat Australia those three or four times in a row, I remember observing that the backs and forwards seemed unconnected.

	13-07-2005 14:10									#126
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Five times in a row I believe.

There is definitely a case for that observation - however I would have to counter that by saying that Wales and France do not hold the record for the number of tries in a 6N campaign. That honour goes to Clive's Jonno led troops (in 2003 I believe).

The problem was the backline could slaughter weak opponents (like Italy, Scotland and Wales) but seldom clicked properly against bigger fish. I guess the AB game of November 2002 is one where they did earn their stripes.

I must mention by the way that I am not too happy that a certain cricket side seems to be hitting form at just the wrong time!

	13-07-2005 14:35									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Five times in a row I believe.

Make the most of the memory.

quote: There is definitely a case for that observation - however I would have to counter that by saying that Wales and France do not hold the record for the number of tries in a 6N campaign. That honour goes to Clive's Jonno led troops (in 2003 I believe). The problem was the backline could slaughter weak opponents (like Italy, Scotland and Wales) but seldom clicked properly against bigger fish.

As I suspected. So the backline problem will remain a hallmark of his coaching.

quote: I must mention by the way that I am not too happy that a certain cricket side seems to be hitting form at just the wrong time!

Yes, well, our bowlers seemed to sort out the England top order in the pyjama version of the game. And Ponting and Gilchrist finally found some form. Hayden is still out of touch and Michael Clark has barely had a hit. We'll see how it all transfers into the real form of the game. I still think much will depend on the accuracy of the England quicks. McGrath's four straight maidens in the pyjama final is the sort of thing I mean. The Australians one-to-seven (with Gilchrist at seven ) will murder anything vaguely loose. I also don't think - Flintoff aside - the England bastmen are equipped to do the same. Interesting quandry for the England selectors - to pick Pietersen or not. There's a hell of a difference between pyjama cricket and real cricket.

	14-07-2005 16:01									#128
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Thought Havak might like this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rug...nal/4646843.stm

So it takes an aussie to be confident about Wales chances against NZ

To be fair i'm quietly opptomistic about the boyo's chances. At the very least i expect a more cohesive game out of them, and maybe in the case of a loss, much less points in it.

	14-07-2005 16:24									#129
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Thought Havak might like this http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rug...nal/4646843.stm So it takes an aussie to be confident about Wales chances against NZ

Havak drew attention to it the other day. I think he - Cockbain, not Havak - is dreaming. Which isn't to say that Havak doesn't dream. He mentioned England's five straight wins over Australia the other day. I think it's called dreaming of better days.

quote: To be fair i'm quietly opptomistic about the boyo's chances. At the very least i expect a more cohesive game out of them, and maybe in the case of a loss, much less points in it.

I'm sure Wales will be more cohesive than the Lions. The Battersea Dogs' Home XV would have been more cohesive than the Lions. And the Labrador/Poodle cross that coached them would have made a more positive contribution to the team's effort than Clive made to the Lions'. As long as the Dogs' Home XV didn't employ a flea-bitten, mangey mongrel as Media Advisor/Spin Doctor as Clive did.

	14-07-2005 16:45									#130
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quote: Originally posted by finbar edit..... . As long as the Dogs' Home XV didn't employ a flea-bitten, mangey mongrel as Media Advisor/Spin Doctor as Clive did.

And on that most true note:

from here: bbc link

'Probyn also attacked the decision to take former Labour spin doctor Alistair Campbell to New Zealand as the Lions' media officer.

"The Campbell situation was a disaster and was always going to be a disaster," said Probyn.

"The fact Campbell gave a team talk to the players is ludicrous and insulting beyond belief.

"What the hell does he know about playing rugby at any level, let alone at Test level?"

Woodward is expected to join Southampton Football Club next month, prompting Probyn to issue Saints boss Harry Redknapp with a word of warning.

"Harry Redknapp will have to be a very good football manager if he is going to deal with Clive week in, week out," he said.'

Just having him(A.Campbell) around probably doomed the tour from the start

EDIT: Sorry I see i'm just digging up the ground Havak already covered. Still its good enough to post twice i think

As for NZ vs Wales - i hope NZ dont go there too confident due to the Lions hamering. This Welsh team at home might just surprise them if they do.

	14-07-2005 16:55									#131
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You know I get the feeling that someone hasn't read back in the thread at all.

The boyos have a chance against NZ - but not a very good one to be honest. The pocket rocket has been worked out totally by the ABs unlike last time he faced them and was an unknown.

Dreaming of better days indeed - the BOD Umaga showdown in November for starters not to mention England starting that new winning run against the Aussies and giving the ABs pause for thought...I'm assuming Turnip will be sacked before the autumn of course.

Pietersen for Thorpe Finbar - the old warrior loses his last crack at his soon to be employers perhaps?

	14-07-2005 17:16									#132
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For not reading back i apologise

For the cricket, i think its probably good to bring in the upcoming players - part of englands problem in the past seemed to be the over-reliance on the regular old boys, even when form was against them. Fortune favours the brave?

What do you make of the TV adds they've been running here for this test. My firt reaction on seeing them was "well i hope they give it a good go" - thinking of a Lions type embaresment(which it wont be now) made me uncomfortable with the cocky note of the ads

Who are England lining up to play between the Lions and the next world cup?(well i mean this autumn atleast)

I see Wales have the rather tall mountain of NZ, Australia, SouthAfrica and the not so tall Fiji(but i think we just like the way Fiji play - it has a touch of the old-style welsh about it; added with huge polyneisian hits).
If anything it will prove where Wales really sit in the world, not so much where we feel we sit

	14-07-2005 20:26									#133
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Oh I am just keeping my fingers crossed we blood the Aussie's noses in the cricket to be honest. I think their current skipper is the most arrogant in a long time (and that is saying something alongside the likes of Waugh) so he could do with a dose of the humbles. Finbar may disagree.

England have a lighter Autumn program - Australia, New Zealand and Samoa in that order.

Don't get me wrong as I would love to see Wales turnover the ABs, I just think it is unlikely.

	14-07-2005 23:24									#134
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You support Wales over NZ? I thought you were anti-Welsh.

	15-07-2005 00:30									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You support Wales over NZ? I thought you were anti-Welsh.

He supports anyone north of the equator in any contest with anyone from south of the equator. He was a front rower, y'see.

	15-07-2005 00:53									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Havak not to mention England starting that new winning run against the Aussies and giving the ABs pause for thought...I'm assuming Turnip will be sacked before the autumn of course.

Slow day at work, huh?

quote: Pietersen for Thorpe Finbar - the old warrior loses his last crack at his soon to be employers perhaps?

Yes, well, potential firepower in place of stability. Interesting choice. Big test for Pietersen. He won't have the luxury of pyjama cricket field restrictions.

	15-07-2005 00:57									#137
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor For not reading back i apologise

Don't. Some of the greatest dross since Jeffrey Archer lurks in these threads.

quote: and the not so tall Fiji(but i think we just like the way Fiji play - it has a touch of the old-style welsh about it; added with huge polyneisian hits).

You forgot no discipline and no structure. Still, they are fun to watch. Sevens was invented for them.

	15-07-2005 01:05									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Oh I am just keeping my fingers crossed we blood the Aussie's noses in the cricket to be honest. I think their current skipper is the most arrogant in a long time (and that is saying something alongside the likes of Waugh) so he could do with a dose of the humbles. Finbar may disagree.

You confuse arrogance with confidence. In fact, R. Ponting is one of the humbler skippers of recent times. S. Waugh was immensely mentally strong, perhaps his greatest asset, and immensely private, often mistaken for arrogance. The last truly arrogant Australian skipper was Ian Chappell.

	15-07-2005 13:03									#139
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You’ll note I didn’t say support Wales – only that I would love to see them turn over the ABs. I think I have previously said I would support the ABs in the fixture haven’t I??

I can’t really lose whoever wins to be honest – I will enjoy either result on the different merits involved.

That is not withstanding that Finbar’s assertion about my preferences is pretty accurate normally.

quote: Slow day at work, huh?

Anything but. Three out of six air handlers for the building I am in failed so I needed to ‘chill’ for a few minutes with some familiar bait.

quote: potential firepower in place of stability. Interesting choice. Big test for Pietersen. He won't have the luxury of pyjama cricket field restrictions.

I just hope my usual routine is broken. I start watching ashes tests all excited – then after two days are normally so hacked off I have to stop. Pietersen has potential for sure – but you are quite right. I only wish he was 100% English.

quote: You confuse arrogance with confidence.

Oh I’m not convinced of that.

Still he is at least facing up to another skipper with some tactical nounce. It shouldn’t be just another game of skittles for the Aussies in this series (does not mean it won’t turn out that way of course!)

I know Andydog has gone back into his self imposed exile after the Lions series but I was speaking to a friend who is in Dublin on business last night and a lot of bars there have mocked up pubwatch posters in the windows saying variations of “Tana Umaga is barred from this pub” and even spotted a T shirt of “BODs God, Tanas Satan” (clever, if contrived and of suspect grammar, eh Finbar?).

Don’t imagine that the Leinster boys are ready to forget and forgive the accident just yet. Sadly Brian is only 50/50 to make the autumn fixture anyway – a mark of what a serious injury it was.

	15-07-2005 14:13									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Havak That is not withstanding that Finbar’s assertion about my preferences is pretty accurate normally.

If Lapland played Madagascar, your colours would be firmly nailed to the Lapland igloo.

quote: Pietersen has potential for sure – but you are quite right. I only wish he was 100% English.

If he were, he wouldn't play the way he does.

quote: Oh I’m not convinced of that.

What you have to realise with Australian Test cricketers is that the competitive edge - toughness, if you like - and confidence - that you call arrogance - is what has brought them through the mightily competitive Australian system. Shield matches here (interstate matches) are very hard fought. They're little Test matches in themselves. The prize - making the Test team - is a huge one. We don't have the extended country system where players can dawdle along earning a living knowing they will never make the English Test team. There are no passengers in Australian state teams. Perform, or someone else gets a chance.

It can, on occasions, roll over into boorishness, but that's the particular personality involved. Warne - a stunningly gifted cricketer but an obviously flawed human being - is capable of it. So is Glenn McGrath, the world's nicest person off the field, but a sufferer of white line fever. He works hard to control it.

Interestingly, R. Ponting was heading down a dangerous road. His background is working-class Launceston in Tasmania, not - with great respect to that part of the world - something that promises much. He had a serious drinking problem resulting in several ugly incidents. He has worked very hard on turning himself around. In fact, if anything, it's his very obvious self control that could be perceived to be arrogance.

quote: Still he is at least facing up to another skipper with some tactical nounce.

I'm yet to be convinced of that. He didn't cover himself with tactical glory out here last time. But a lot of a captain's success can be traced to his on-field support. There's no shortage of experience and tactical expertise in the Australian team. I don't know that Vaughan yet has that back up.

quote: “Tana Umaga is barred from this pub” and even spotted a T shirt of “BODs God, Tanas Satan” (clever, if contrived and of suspect grammar, eh Finbar?).

Not to mention childish.

quote: Don’t imagine that the Leinster boys are ready to forget and forgive the accident just yet. Sadly Brian is only 50/50 to make the autumn fixture anyway – a mark of what a serious injury it was.

The key word, of course, is accident. If he'd fallen a couple of inches in either direction, he'd've got up and walked away.

	15-07-2005 15:44									#141
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I used the word deliberately - but if you think that will make any difference to the hulking Leinster and Munstermen waiting for the game then I'm a dutch uncle.

	15-07-2005 16:08									#142
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Yes, and I suspect the ABs are big and strong enough to look after themselves. Besides, if they're going to pursue vendettas in lieu of playing rugby, they'll get a bigger pasting than they otherwise would have.

	15-07-2005 16:56									#143
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I was actually talking about the fans and their lack of forgiveness!!!

	15-07-2005 17:46									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I was actually talking about the fans and their lack of forgiveness!!!

Ah yes. Probably a good idea for any travelling kiwis to try and avoid those pubs with dark alleys atleast till they can judge the reaction from the locals. It might be fine, but then again it might not. Difficult to tell what a guiness+celtic temprement might do sometimes.

	15-07-2005 17:58									#145
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quote: quote coT: and the not so tall Fiji(but i think we just like the way Fiji play - it has a touch of the old-style welsh about it; added with huge polyneisian hits). Originally posted by finbar You forgot no discipline and no structure. Still, they are fun to watch. Sevens was invented for them.

Discipline and structure - as i said the welsh have an affinity for the Fijian style of playing. I think for Wales to be succesful they need to play this way AND keep the modern game intact? Atleast thats my gut feeling. But yeah i love watching Fiji play too, I wonder what proper investment would be able to do with all the latent talent they seem to posess

	15-07-2005 18:36									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I was actually talking about the fans and their lack of forgiveness!!!

Fans? Tish tosh.

	15-07-2005 18:37									#147
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I'm a veteran visitor to Ireland and can assure you that Kiwi fans will be totally safe. The BOD situation will however be verbally thrust at them time and time again. God help any that crack and get upset - the Irish can be quite merciless when a victim rises to the bait that way.

	15-07-2005 18:41									#148
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No, really, Finbar - I did mean the fans. How on earth did you read it otherwise?

Tana will get quite reception when he takes the field - and for the duration no doubt.

Going the biff? Don't condone it at all. Mind you if the ABs should try it I don't fear for the Irish too much.

	15-07-2005 18:42									#149
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor But yeah i love watching Fiji play too, I wonder what proper investment would be able to do with all the latent talent they seem to posess

Hard to know. I suspect good coaching and nurturing could produce a mighty good outfit. Providing, of course, Andydog's mates stop cherry picking.

	15-07-2005 18:45									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Havak No, really, Finbar - I did mean the fans. How on earth did you read it otherwise?

I meant tish tosh to the fans.