07-07-2005 14:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The ABs are now missing McCaw and McDonald and the #10 is a baby. This has to be the Lions' chance. Just a pity about Greenwood and Peel.

Both teams now missing at least three star players:

McCaw/ Dayglo
Carter/ Johnny
Mauger/ O'Driscoll

Could be the game we have been hoping for all tour? A real contest?

	07-07-2005 14:14									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes I tend to agree. With Smith injured it had to be D'Arcy who has played himself into some semblance of form - Will certainly has not. The faith kept in Peel is interesting after Dawson had a great mid-week game (not that I like Dawson) and Cusiter has been solid all tour.

If Kellaher is up to his usual harassing tricks, Peel could be costly.

quote: What is hilarious to me is that there is no longer a Kiwi in the AB loose forwards. And perhaps there is just a slim shred of hope and early signs of Henry-itis in the move of the big blocking, badgering and bullying Samoan to openside? Frankly I would have put Hollah straight in there instead and I fully expect Moody to beat the Samoan at the art of the breakdown even though Lewis is no specialist seven either.

A-ha. But as per my post of the other day, they are all, originally, South Chinese via Taiwan.

quote: Incidentally Finbar Horse is banging the league drum elsewhere - go smack him down in your eloquent style please?

Yes, I looked at the thread the other day. Your contribution was valiant. I deliberately stayed out of it. I've had these discussions with Horse before, via ICQ, while waiting for our Civ games to get under way. It's a lost cause. He prefers the tedious, one-dimensional game. And as for the argument that X number of tackles per game constitutes X amount of action per minute ergo it's entertaining! On that basis, basketball is entertaining, and basketball, as we know, is an entertaining as a puff of vapour. Surprising, really, for an otherwise highly intelligent soul. I think the chilled, rarefied Canberra air has damaged some of his neurones.

	07-07-2005 14:18									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Not ignoring it and never said it didn't have faults. In fact the first thing Henry did on his return to NZ was to instruct all the Super12 coaches to sort out the forward play.

Eddie said pretty much the same thing early last season about the set pieces in general.

	07-07-2005 14:20									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Both teams now missing at least three star players: McCaw/ Dayglo

No comparison these days. Three years ago, perhaps.

quote: Carter/ Johnny

Two years ago, perhaps, for obvious reasons.

quote: Could be the game we have been hoping for all tour? A real contest?

You master of irony, you.

	07-07-2005 14:24									#95
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I'm not sure that McDonald has been entirely ruled out as yet ... ?

Glad to see that D'Arcy is finally getting a foot in the door though.

	07-07-2005 14:43									#96
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon I'm not sure that McDonald has been entirely ruled out as yet ... ?

He has. McAlister is in for him.

quote: Glad to see that D'Arcy is finally getting a foot in the door though.

Where?

	07-07-2005 14:48									#97
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Fine I'll get them for you. They aren't hard to find. And btw the Jonno book is worth reading and for the reason I suggested however funny you found it - look like I'll have to trawl up the relevant part myself. It will take me a day as my Library is at home of course.

Would you like a dictionary to look up 'fact' and 'opinion' as you have them a little confused I think - you even tell me I'm presenting other facts to yours before then citing an opinion that you had offered.

I like you mate - you are a kindred spirit (whether you like the fact or not).

The Lions came close to winning the series in 01 - but they had one of the best skippers ever to play the game. I would offer my opinion that this contributed hugely to their competitiveness.

	07-07-2005 19:05									#98
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I can only pray the irony actually plays out as true.

McCaw should actually be compared to Backy and Williams. He comes out favourably to both right now - although he is ten years younger than Backy and it’s still much closer between them than that fact should insist upon.

Dayglo should be compared to the Samoans – and is not overmatched there.

Carter is out on his own – probably better last Saturday than Wilko at his best. Will he collect the same silverware? Time will tell.

Umaga and BOD are the direct comparisons and it remains a shame we were robbed of this clash.

quote: If Kellaher is up to his usual harassing tricks, Peel could be costly.

Yes but it’s Kaplan and the beef barrel might tread on his toes early doors (metaphorically speaking)?

quote: A-ha. But as per my post of the other day, they are all, originally, South Chinese via Taiwan

I am sure you are right. I certainly agree they are not New Zealanders. There are a a couple of non-Brits in the Lions too of course – a bok and an Aussie.

Here is a little fact for you all – I managed to forget about Granny-gate! Graham Henry picked and played Shane Howarth and Brett Sinkinson for Wales only to look somewhat foolish when it proved that both their claims of having Welsh grandparents were false and had not actually been verified in any way. Probably not his fault – a coach picks who he is told is available by his staff – but damn funny still.

	08-07-2005 12:37									#99
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Well I was little busy last night but I did trawl up some quotes from VD and Martin (didn't get time to find Dawse and Dai Young's).

I'm not going to use them though for this reason:

quote: "We would just like to pass on from the All Blacks our deep sympathies to the people affected by the terrorist attacks in London. The game, really, doesn't seem that significant when these sort of things are going on in the world."

Mr Henry has shown a bit of class and I respect that.

It took me over six hours to finally confirm that both friends I have who live in London were okay yesterday. I was particularly worried about one of them who works rather close to where the bus was bombed - thankfully she was fine.

	08-07-2005 12:50									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Yes but it’s Kaplan and the beef barrel might tread on his toes early doors (metaphorically speaking)?

Kaplan? Mmmm. The Lions' odds just shortened. Anything's possible with Mr Unpredictable. Kellaher can and does tread that very thin offside line but he's just as much of a menace from onside.

	08-07-2005 12:52									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It took me over six hours to finally confirm that both friends I have who live in London were okay yesterday. I was particularly worried about one of them who works rather close to where the bus was bombed - thankfully she was fine.

And hopefully Andydog is the same.

	08-07-2005 14:12									#102
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I'm okay thanks, so are all my London friends thankfully.

I was quite lucky really, to get to my office in Holborn I take either the Central Line to Chancery Lane (untouched) or the Circle Line to Kings Cross (the scene of the 2nd blast). Luckily yesterday I took the Central Line.

Walking home yesterday afternoon was strange - the streets, although teaming with people, were eerie. All the shops were shut, the tube stops closed, the roads devoid of all but police cars, ambulances, and fire utilities, and even the bars had locked their doors. It took me 3 hours to walk from Holborn to my home in NW London.

I'm pretty sure that the Londoners will bounce back from this fairly quickly. Bombs are nothing new here - the IRA have been letting them off for generations. I was impressed with how the emergency services did their work with speed and efficiency.

	08-07-2005 14:20									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Would you like a dictionary to look up 'fact' and 'opinion' as you have them a little confused I think - you even tell me I'm presenting other facts to yours before then citing an opinion that you had offered.

Take another look at my posts. I used facts such as these:

quote: ..he lead Auckland to four successive national titles and the Blues to victory in the first two Super 12 tournaments. Wales, who had been thumped 96-13 by South Africa in June 1998, halted England's grand slam bid in 1999, then beat the Springboks 29-19 in Cardiff, and then went on to win 10 straight games.

..to support my opinion that Henry is a quality coach.

And I earlier I had given my opinion as to why some of the 01 Lions disliked his style.

No confusion there mate!

	08-07-2005 15:26									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog I'm okay thanks, so are all my London friends thankfully.

I need you around here with Havak plucking statistics out of his backside!

EDIT. He, of course, will be pleased with the news that Leicester won't be sharing a ground, that Welford Road will be redeveloped instead. For some reason, there was a link on the BBC rugby page to the weather in Leicester. 25C, sunny, but, oddly, the visibility declared to be poor. Presumably all those one-eyed supporters.

	08-07-2005 16:28									#105
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Glad you are okay Andydog.

Dude I grant you the Auckland fact.

But the 'ten straight victories' I have fully rebutted as a sign of his coaching quality by pointing out who they were against (and that they did not commence with the Bok game). What do you personally make of his two record losses to Ireland - and his two record losses to England? How do you feel about the fact that he was sacked by Wales - and that he left Hansen a team that kept getting walloped (thus undermining any claim he laid any foundations for Wales current success)?

Like I said you are a kindred spirit - you cherry pick in your replies too.

	08-07-2005 16:45									#106
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Yes, I'm the only one who plays fair around here. Truthful, factual, without bias or irony.

	08-07-2005 18:53									#107
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And you nearly had me sucked in there - right up to the last word of the sentence.

	08-07-2005 19:11									#108
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Why waste it on Horse in the L***** thread?

	08-07-2005 19:20									#109
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Glad to hear all the people we know in London are ok. I was a bit worried about my sister who lives in Clapham, but later found out she was on a business trip in Portugal yesterday.

	08-07-2005 19:27									#110
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quote: Yes, I'm the only one who plays fair around here. Truthful, factual, without bias or irony.

This could be sig material.

	08-07-2005 19:59									#111
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Very much sig material.

Please avoid other threads Finbar - at fifty Euros a pop I would soon have to start thinking of my own phrases!

	09-07-2005 16:14									#112
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I actually got to listen to the match! Via the link that kiwiman posted last week. Couldn't get it working last week, this week I worked out how.

Sounded like more of the same. Even with the ABs down to 14 for a total of twenty minutes, the Lions couldn't make inroads. The Lions' backline sounded as impotent as ever. Were they simply not getting the ball? Or doing nothing with it when they got it? Sounded like Dawson made some sort of difference when he appeared.

And Rico Gear's late try sounded like a pearler. I saw him do it many times in S12. Very gifted player.

Clive is going to be canned for the headline on the BBC article suggesting that he called the tour a success. He seemed to be talking about the "Lions ethos" being a success while conceding they were beaten by, simply, a better side.

EDIT. Oh, and the Wallabies cleaned up the Boks 30-12. So much for Jake White's 900+ kg pack and his trash talk. Another best on ground by Steve Larkham. Pity, apparently, about the Boks' deliberate high hits, some apparent stomping, and Nathan Sharp uttering the words "eye gouge".

Last edited by finbar on 09-07-2005 at 18:43

	10-07-2005 14:53									#113
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Backstage on the Lions tour gets sillier and sillier. The widely-published photo of Clive and Gavin Henson apparently chatting amicably together after training, purporting to show that Henson had accepted his non-selection in the Test team, was a set up, orchestrated by Alastair Campbell. The photographer involved has confirmed that he was told not to let Henson see him taking the photograph. He positioned himself behind a car and used a long lens. Read Campbell tying himself in knots trying to avoid telling the truth. Tosser.

Clive, for whatever unfortunate reason, must have agreed to Campbell's idea. I'm not sure what it does to the personal trust factor between coach and player.

I did warn you, Clive. Lie down with dogs, you'll get up with fleas.

	11-07-2005 13:08									#114
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But at least it's an object lesson for the next coach - in how not to do things?

I don’t think there is any shame in losing to a better side to be honest – and all teams experience it sooner or later. The ABs are a mighty fine side right now.

As much as Clive’s timing may have sucked on Saturday though he was still right to warn the Kiwi fans that they will have bad days as well as good ones (he should know).

If the boys are honest I bet they have already dreamed of Tana lifting the Webb Ellis? But haven’t we been here before between world cups?

Yes the late interception try was a pearler. You could see it coming a mile off unless you were wearing a red shirt. In fact the Lions backs have been given a lesson in rugby all series. The forwards once again did much better – O’Connell and Moody had strong games in particular – but once it left the pack it was schoolboy stuff. Murphy got little ball but achieved more than Robinson did in two prior games. Lewsey was solid in defence but I can't pick any back who looked threatning in attack - no one ever seemed to hit the ball at any pace?

Kaplan – what an amazing guy. I would have given yellow cards to various players at various points – but not to the two he did when he did. And the fact both were ABs? Brave man!

It occurred to me watching the game that the ABs may well get better games when they play Wales and England separately. Yes even with England in their current slump. The Lions in all three tests just never looked like a team to be honest.

Fundamentally the next Lions tour has to revert to the old format of eight week tours. Ten games in five weeks was too much – and Clive did make a mistake in having such a huge squad I think. The next coach must strive to give his test unit some game time together before the big one. And we still have the problem of how much rugby we play – it’s becoming vital we address this. Some of the lads playing on Saturday were clocking up towards forty games this season – and were playing lads who had done fifteen or so. As soon as they land in the UK they will be back in pre-season (started a week ago) – it’s crazy!

As Finbar pointed out the ground share is dead in Leicester – thank goodness. We will be developing Welford Road. I’m happy – soccer grounds just are not the same.

And when the ABs are done with Carter or McAllister – send them to Leicester okay?

	11-07-2005 13:13									#115
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As a post script what matters the trust between Clive and Henson? One is headed to soccer and the other one might as well be - they both need to rebuild reputations from the ground up.

The tanned one was built up as the saviour of the Lions by the taffs and himself but when given his chance was nothing more than average (at best). Smith has come out the tour with more kudos - such a shame injury stopped his test appearances (he was picked for the second test before injury blew it for him).

	11-07-2005 15:48									#116
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Havak [/SIZE As much as Clive’s timing may have sucked on Saturday though he was still right to warn the Kiwi fans that they will have bad days as well as good ones (he should know).

Yes, the timing sucked. He just can't bring himself to be gracious, can he? You have to wonder about an ego like that. Does he genuinely believe he did nothing wrong? Would he genuinely do everything the same way all over again? Which isn't to say that he could have reversed the results - the ABs were obviously too good. But mistakes were obviously made. When he's off fishing with his family, will the vaguest doubt enter his head? Or does he know he made mistakes and the ego won't let him concede it publicly?

quote: It occurred to me watching the game that the ABs may well get better games when they play Wales and England separately. Yes even with England in their current slump. The Lions in all three tests just never looked like a team to be honest.

Without having seen the matches, I think you're right. A settled, balanced team has to have more chance.

quote: Fundamentally the next Lions tour has to revert to the old format of eight week tours. Ten games in five weeks was too much – and Clive did make a mistake in having such a huge squad I think. The next coach must strive to give his test unit some game time together before the big one.

My memory of the Lions tour here is that there were two teams - midweek and Test. Not mutually exclusive, but just about. The cause of some of the angst, if I recall. Doesn't that just about have to be the way? Professionalism, et al, has meant the home teams are now so much better prepared than they were in the old days.

quote: And we still have the problem of how much rugby we play – it’s becoming vital we address this.

Quite so.

	11-07-2005 15:50									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Havak As a post script what matters the trust between Clive and Henson?

I was talking, of course, of the principle.

quote: The tanned one was built up as the saviour of the Lions by the taffs and himself but when given his chance was nothing more than average (at best).

To be fair, he had one chance. Others, with far fewer qualifications, apart from Clive's admiration, had twice as many.

	12-07-2005 00:19									#118
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Quote of the day

"I don't think there's any gulf between the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere. Who holds the World Cup at the moment?"
- Lions coach CLIVE WOODWARD after New Zealand's 3-0 Test series whitewash over the Lions.

Sounds like some of the tosh hurled around this forum as the stinkiest of bait, Clive.

	12-07-2005 09:50									#119
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Just finished reading a summary of the Lions end-tour postmortem. Not that I had time to read it or to post this mind you.
Apparently, get this, Clive has figured out what exactly went wrong and has made a public recommendation to his successor.
The problem?
Lack of players ...
3 full teams, 45 players, up to about 48 at one stage iirc, wasn't enough.

quote: Originally posted by Havak And when the ABs are done with Carter or McAllister – send them to Leicester okay?

Actually, if the release of the AB 3N team is anything to go by you might actually have a crack at Howlett too ...

	12-07-2005 12:18									#120
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Dougie's slide from glory has been gradual. He had, by his standards, an ordinary S12 season. Not helped by the Blues' erratic performances. Telling, perhaps, that his fellow Blue Joe Rokococo also suffered to the extent that he finished up in the ABs Junior (read A) team playing in Australia recently.